Writing bad songs

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I read somewhere that there is a piece of software that can predict "hits" for record companies. I've often found most music to be formulaic and more of a craft rather than an art. Just my opinion. Used to think I was an artist. Maybe I was, but now consider myself to be more of a craftsman.
 
miroslav said:
You been on YouTube/MeSpace lately....?...there's a LOT of people who think everything they post is "gold"...but all it takes is like, 10 seconds of listening to it and it's obvious how bad or good it is. :)

A lot of that "everything I create is gold" mentality came about in the '90s, when it became "OK" to sing and play like shit, but you could still get on a stage and be an "artist".
Not saying all the bands/music of that period was shit....just saying that was a big turning point in the whole self-esteem thing, along with the political correctness movement that says we shouldn't rate people or their skills....that's it's "all good" no matter what, and winning is not important....blah, blah, blah.

Not saying that someone in their own world can't be happy and in love with everything they do...that's fine, stay home and entertain yourself....but if you want any kind of public recognition, then your product WILL be rated on many levels and either be considered bad or good on a few levels.... artistically and technically, etc.
The guys who ask for public recognition but then get pissy/upset when the majority of people say their stuff isn't that great...well, their just living in denial.
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Welp, I do agree that some songs are better than others, for unquantifiable reasons not related to popularity, but Greg's point about Dylan is important. You made a decision to give Dylan a chance based on legend status and his general reputation, where he "fits in" among other bands and artists you know you like. Indie rock artists such as the ones from the 90s you disparage are artists that you haven't given a chance for whatever reason...maybe they don't fit into what you feel a person like yourself should listen to, whatever. But your rejection is nonmusical, as is everyone's "decision" of what they should and shouldn't "try to" like. And the whole "I can tell if it's good or bad in ten seconds" thing is pretty normal these days. You won't find many who don't believe that about themselves...and that's an effect of the democratization of music...It's hyperavailable, so you better impress me in ten seconds or I'm clicking on something else. I personally think the best stuff takes longer than that to build and unwind...but music that has those playful elements is disappearing because people are unwilling to focus on one thing for more than a few seconds.
 
I just Googled the article I referred to in my last post. It's titled,"Together In Electric Dreams" if anyone cares to read it. I would've posted the link, but don't know how to do that kind of shit.
 
Wow, that takes all the fun out of it. At least it seems industry folk recognize the limits of HSS. I have to support the "no good or bad" camp, unless I write a song encouraging people to start committing random child murders, that would be a "bad song", right? I think being a songwriter and playing music has led me to appreciate a broader range of music, but I still have a natural, immediate like or dislike for songs I hear. I find sometimes when I didn't like something, and then I hear someone praise it or explain what they like about it, I will like it on a second listen. I also find that the recording and arrangement plays a big part in whether I like a song or not. I've noticed that some people like more serious efforts from a craft and technical perspective, while others like fun and less rigorous material, music from the gut. I like both myself, and love it when the two can be combined. I'm not sure how Cherry Pie or Miley is any less fun than Surfin Bird, which was a rip-off of a song the Rivingtons ripped off some other guy anyway. Poor Miley takes a lot of heat for using sex to sell and that's been done since forever. That's just generational snobbery to me, an Wrecking Ball is not a bad song imo. I don't like many of the songs I have written, but my main criteria is trying to be real and genuine and original, and I've found it to be a tough trick to not fall into some pattern of sounding like stuff you've heard all your life.
 
You want bad?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0lKmznjgfQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUVZsu36SW4
 
There's something screwy on Page 2 of this thread (I think it may be the links bongoboy included in hos posts)...but every time I go to Page 2 and try to quote/post...the page freezes and the browser crashes yet I can go to any other page an post on HR.

So....I'm responding from memory on what I managed to read on page 2....

@ Greg
Discussing what we like or don't like is perfectly normal. I mean, if we just take the position that it’s pointless since everyone has their own opinions, why do we even hang on HR and post then? :)
In some ways, you're implying that any song anyone writes, can't be considered "bad" or "good", because there may be someone else with an opposing opinion, so then no opinions matter....but again, we sure spend an awful amount of time here on HR giving *opinions* on everything, don't we? :D

That's my point, when 500 people think something sucks....and 1 person (like the guy who wrote it) thinks it's great...mmmmm, I think it's fair to say that it....sucks.
When you have millions of "Beiber fans" loving his music...that's OK for them, they are kids with evolving tastes. I seriously doubt that when they hit their mid-30s that they will still be obsessed with that stuff...but at this time, for that majority, that music is "good". For us, it's shit.

Of course...that's now talking about *styles* of music, which I didn't really get into here. This threads is about writing bad songs and good songs. I think that even for the "Beiber fans"...in that style of music, there can be both bad songs and good songs, even we all think that *style* of music generally sucks.
Maybe some folks don't see the difference between writing good and bad songs VS liking certain styles of music....but I see it as two totally different things.

I'm confident that my tastes in styles of music are more wider than most people's...yet within each style, I can still find songs that I think suck and ones that I think are well done.

@ fat_fleet

I didn't bring up Dylan....nor did I mention any one specific artist of the '90s. I even said there is also good music from the '90s.....so you're taking it too personally (if you happen to like a lot of bands from that era).

As I said, the thread has gone from *songwriting* to people talking about their favorite artists and styles of music...which has NOTHING to do with *good/bad songwriting*, which can happen in any style.
I didn't care much for Nirvana....BUT.....there are at least 2-3 of their songs that I think are great songs. So you CAN dislike a style of music and still know the difference between a good song or a bad song within that style, in most cases…IMO.

My main point of the '90s was that there was a lot of songs that amounted to one or two droning notes and some droning lyrics...and I don't see that as good songwriting.
If now someone wants to say that the *style* was popular with the Grunge/Indie crowd, and that therefore the songs must be good....then we've come full circle, so then what...?...everything is a good song as long as someone, somewhere thinks it's good?
That there is no way it can ever be bad? ;)
 
miroslav said:
@ Greg
Discussing what we like or don't like is perfectly normal. I mean, if we just take the position that it’s pointless since everyone has their own opinions, why do we even hang on HR and post then? :)
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I don't know. I do think it's pointless. These conversations never go anywhere productive.

In some ways, you're implying that any song anyone writes, can't be considered "bad" or "good", because there may be someone else with an opposing opinion, so then no opinions matter...
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Correct. I'm not implying it, I'm flat out saying it. Songwriting opinions mean nothing to me. Especially when you consider the source. What if I told you that your songs are "bad"? Would you care? You'd probably get butthurt and lash out back at me. Why? What do you care? You shouldn't, especially if you have no respect for my own music. See what I mean? It doesn't matter. Unsolicited opinions mean nothing.

That's my point, when 500 people think something sucks....and 1 person (like the guy who wrote it) thinks it's great...mmmmm, I think it's fair to say that it....sucks.
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. And you can say it all you want, it doesn't make you right though.

When you have millions of "Beiber fans" loving his music...that's OK for them, they are kids with evolving tastes. I seriously doubt that when they hit their mid-30s that they will still be obsessed with that stuff...
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I'm not so sure. Most folks stick with whatever music they like in their youth. Most baby boomers still listen to 50s and 60s rock. Hippies still love hippie music. Gen X still loves the 80s and 90s. Today's youth will probably still like Riahnna when they'e 30-40 years old.

Of course...that's now talking about *styles* of music, which I didn't really get into here. This threads is about writing bad songs and good songs. I think that even for the "Beiber fans"...in that style of music, there can be both bad songs and good songs, even we all think that *style* of music generally sucks.
Maybe some folks don't see the difference between writing good and bad songs VS liking certain styles of music....but I see it as two totally different things.

I'm confident that my tastes in styles of music are more wider than most people's...yet within each style, I can still find songs that I think suck and ones that I think are well done.
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This just gets a :laughings:
 
I'm still having to post from Page 1, since Page 2 keeps crashing on me for some reason....so I can't quote you and respond to each point...
...but I will say again, you're really talking about "styles" and I'm talking about bad/good songwriting.
You don't seem to think there is a difference.

I can tell a good Country & Western song, even though I may not be a big fan of that style.
You seem to reduce everything to the style of music one likes, and every other opinion stems from that.

In the home-rec world where we primarily amuse ourselves, your opinion about my music, and my opinion about your music is irrelevant...I agree....and I have very little to feel "butt-hurt" about :D if you don't like my music.
I mean, I can't recall you ever liking anything I've posted, but it hasn't stopped me from writing/recording. ;)

Now....take your/mine/anynone's music and put it up for mass public consumption, and where it directly could translate to $$$, and I can guarantee you that it WILL matter to you what the general public thinks.

I'm not saying that sales = great songs....but you have this tendency to always say you don't care about anything, which I find hard to believe as that is a very apathetic attitude, and honestly, I don't see you as that type of person at all.
I think you just say it 'cuz it sounds nice to say. I mean, I get like that sometimes too...."I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks or says about______", but that's not really the truth across the board...we just get like that sometimes as a defensive posture.

I'm not saying that we should be jumping off the roof if someone likes/or doesn't like our songs...but we certainly don't make music just for our own, private consumption, 'cuz if we did it only for that, we would not be here.
And again....liking someone's style of music is not the same thing as a well written or poorly written song.

Anyway, I asked Chili to take a look at those links bongoboy posted as I think they (?) are somehow the cause of Page 2 crashing...so until it's fixed or we get to Page 3....I'm not going to bother posting any more since it's a PITA not being able to work off of the posts I'm trying to respond to.
 
miroslav said:
I'm still having to post from Page 1, since Page 2 keeps crashing on me for some reason....so I can't quote you and respond to each point...
...but I will say again, you're really talking about "styles" and I'm talking about bad/good songwriting.
You don't seem to think there is a difference.
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I stopped reading right here because you clearly do not understand my points. Never mind.
 
You bring up a good point. The quote is really a rule of thumb. Most writers DO have to write about a hundred songs to get one SOLD. That doesn't make any of the others "bad". I suggest writing at least one song a day. If you have trouble writing, write about having trouble writing or about how hard it is. Write about anything and everything.and try new beats and new syncopation. 'Good Luck,
Rod Norman

ido1957 said:
Someone mentioned on another forum that you have to write a lot of crappy songs before you can write anything good. I disagree. There's too many guys here that from the start write consistently good tunes. And who decides what is good anyway?
What do you think?
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I believe it was my post about the software program that can predict "Hits" that was causing the problems on this thread. It has since been removed, and I apologize for any trouble or inconvenience I inadvertently may have caused anyone.
 
XploZiveToyz said:
I believe it was my post about the software program that can predict "Hits" that was causing the problems on this thread. It has since been removed, and I apologize for any trouble or inconvenience I inadvertently may have caused anyone.
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Um, how would that have an affect on the site. Was it a mutated alien link with undesirable values and religious preferences related to the eating of anything but pork?
 
LOL! I don't know Jimmy, but since it was deleted my browser, along with everyone else's, quit freezing up every time I/they went to that particular page. Don't know what the hell I did wrong, but I definitely screwed up some how. I'll leave it to the computer whizzes to figure it out. LOL!
 
I think there are some "bars" to good and bad music. You can't just say that public opinion is the bar. You can't just say that some egghead professors with music degrees decide what's good and bad. But you can quantify what makes you like what you like and it's not strictly about personal taste. Beethoven's 5th kind of turns me down, but when I hear the TLO version, I kinda like it. On the other hand, one of my favorite recordings is London Symphony Orchestra's Nutcracker, and the Tchaikovsky knock-offs from Trans Light kinda turn me off.

I listen to bluegrass, rock, country, metal, classical, blues, jazz (Cali style and a little honky-tonk), some rap, some indie, some etc...

But I see good songs and bad songs in every genre. I very rarely find an entire album that appeals to me. Therefore IMO the best thing that ever happened to the music industry was MP3 purchasing...where I can choose to take the whole album or just pick and choose the songs that appeal to me.

That said, and getting back to my original post. Often the songs that I pick either are, or become the popular songs on the albums that I have taken. Although I agree that 7 billion people choosing to do something doesn't make it right, and if you're the only one doing something right that doesn't make it wrong, songwriting is subjective and therefore popularity is important. You don't hire a plumber that nobody you know likes. Even though a surgeon makes life and death decisions on your body, you wouldn't choose one at random. You're going to get some popular (or professional) advice.

So, although some things are not subjective...2+2 always equals 4 (unless you're in base 3 or 4), music IS. Therefore whether you like popularity leading the industry or not, it does.

To the OP. If you want to learn how to write "good" songs in a specific genre, study the genre. Pick iconic songs and see what makes them great. Then apply what you know to your own writing. This is how a lot of artists, authors, newspaper columnists, etc. make their big breaks. Know your competition, make your own individual "mark" and find your way into the "greats." Bottom line though, if you're not happy with what you're writing, you simply won't be happy.

OK guys, go ahead and torch my post!
 
When you're into makin' music, you've got all this classic stuff you listen to that made you want to make music in the first place....iconic, sometimes famous pieces of music that have been with you through your life.

"Good music" is all music created by either one of two subsets-
(1) Those famous time-tested "legend" artists you love, or
(2) The modern-day heir to their mojo and awesomeness, you.

Everything else is "bad music".
 
^ ^ ^ ^ This is very apropos.

@ Jimmy: :eek: However you choose to entertain yourself is, of course, your option...lol
 
miroslav said:
@ fat_fleet

I didn't bring up Dylan....nor did I mention any one specific artist of the '90s. I even said there is also good music from the '90s.....so you're taking it too personally (if you happen to like a lot of bands from that era).

As I said, the thread has gone from *songwriting* to people talking about their favorite artists and styles of music...which has NOTHING to do with *good/bad songwriting*, which can happen in any style.
I didn't care much for Nirvana....BUT.....there are at least 2-3 of their songs that I think are great songs. So you CAN dislike a style of music and still know the difference between a good song or a bad song within that style, in most cases…IMO.
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Ha, missed this. No, I don't have a horse in the genre race. I was just talking about the non-musical ways we decide what's good and bad, and what to even give a chance. I said the same thing better two posts up anyways.
 
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