Writing bad songs

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Don't forget Surfin' Bird. It's probably the best song ever written.
 
A professional came and taught a songwriting class in high school.

"Baby Baby Don't Get Hooked On Me" was actually written as a song-writing pun based on the hook of the song actually using the term "hooked."
 
Greg_L said:
Because there's a measurable, noticeable difference between a good plumber and a bad plumber. Plumbing is not subjective.
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And sometimes....how good you lay pipe can be subjective. :D
Here's plumbing and music coming together.



You don't *need to* write a couple of hundred "bad" songs in order to write a good one....it's just that when someone first starts out writing, they may have a bunch of sophomoric songwriting efforts before the better stuff starts to come out.

It can be subjective, and everyone has different tastes....but sometimes, you can get a large consensus on what's a really good song or really bad song.
I don't believe that everything anyone writes is "good" as long as they think it's "good" (or bad).
 
Greg_L said:
Don't forget Surfin' Bird. It's probably the best song ever written.
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Was is actually "written" though? I thought they just rolled tape and made up a bunch of shit on the spot. :)

Edit: Actually, I meant "just made up one thing on the spot" and did it over and over.
 
I can see why Greg says what he does, because he is taking it from the point that the "bad" is someone else's opinion. But I tend to agree that as long as it is your own work, you can say whether a song is good or bad. And I think you do have to write a few, or many "bad" (Or at least not up to your own standard) songs before you start to really become good at the art of songwriting or composing. It is the same as any other skill, practice makes perfect.

I'm sure that this is how the person meant it when he/she said you have to write bad songs before you can write good songs.

I guess I will always be surprised at the vast variety of attitudes and beliefs there are in this world. For myself, it is hard to believe that someone could actually think that they could never write a "bad" song. Yet to others that may seem normal. And I respect that.
 
TheAquired said:
For myself, it is hard to believe that someone could actually think that they could never write a "bad" song. Yet to others that may seem normal. And I respect that.
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You been on YouTube/MeSpace lately....?...there's a LOT of people who think everything they post is "gold"...but all it takes is like, 10 seconds of listening to it and it's obvious how bad or good it is. :)

A lot of that "everything I create is gold" mentality came about in the '90s, when it became "OK" to sing and play like shit, but you could still get on a stage and be an "artist".
Not saying all the bands/music of that period was shit....just saying that was a big turning point in the whole self-esteem thing, along with the political correctness movement that says we shouldn't rate people or their skills....that's it's "all good" no matter what, and winning is not important....blah, blah, blah.

Not saying that someone in their own world can't be happy and in love with everything they do...that's fine, stay home and entertain yourself....but if you want any kind of public recognition, then your product WILL be rated on many levels and either be considered bad or good on a few levels.... artistically and technically, etc.
The guys who ask for public recognition but then get pissy/upset when the majority of people say their stuff isn't that great...well, their just living in denial.
 
miroslav said:
A lot of that "everything I create is gold" mentality came about in the '90s, when it became "OK" to sing and play like shit, but you could still get on a stage and be an "artist".
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Bob Dylan came out in the 90s?
 
Greg_L said:
Bob Dylan came out in the 90s?
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:laughings:

Hey....Dylan might not be your favorite singer/perfomer....but the guy has written some good songs that have been covered by countless major artists. I don't think every Dylan song is "gold", but he's most definitely a good songwriter...IMO.
 
miroslav said:
:laughings:

Hey....Dylan might not be your favorite singer/perfomer....but the guy has written some good songs that have been covered by countless major artists. I don't think every Dylan song is "gold", but he's most definitely a good songwriter...IMO.
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I like Bob Dylan. But you went on to rail against people of the 90s that according to you can't sing or play. My point was Bob Dylan can't sing or play either, so your rant kind of seemed very get-off-my-lawn-geezerish. I'm generally not a fan of 90s music much, but one of the best things about that decade's rock and "alternative" music is many of those bands got back to trying to write good songs that mean something to them as opposed to being all about flash and self-indulgent performances like some of the shit previous.
 
Well...you may not like the sound of his voice, but Dylan can sing and Dylan can play guitar pretty good, and most of all, he's a really good songwriter overall (that's not just me doing a "get-off-my-lawn" thing....that's been said by a lot of people).

Of course, the home/lo-fi music scene also took off in the late '90s, so you had way more people putting out stuff, and then putting it on the net, so we got to hear a lot of bad shit too, that we might not have otherwise, so maybe it just showcased it that much more...I dunno...?

AFA "songs that mean something"...that's pretty subjective, and since you mentioned Dylan, his songs to me have WAY more meaning than some stuff post '90s....which I actually find WAY more "self-indulgant"...like all the songs are about "me in my world, no matter how odd" kind of stuff.
I listen to some of that droning/star-gazer shit and I just find that it sounds SO friggin' sophomoric AFA "songwriting" goes. I mean, if I went on to play/reocrd like that, I would toss it out as junk and start over....yet that stuff gets major airplay, so we traded "flash" for what I consider "home demo grade" music in *some* cases (there is also a lot of good music post '90s).

I guess to each his own....
 
LOL! As Greg stated,"Its subjective"! Beauty is in the ears of the beholder! LOL!
 
XploZiveToyz said:
LOL! As Greg stated,"Its subjective"! Beauty is in the ears of the beholder! LOL!
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That is what I'm saying. I don't believe there's any definitive measure of a good or bad song. If someone says "that's a good song" or "that's a bad song" I think the "in my opinion" is implied, or should be implied, or inferred, depending on your point of reference. Mass appeal, sales, and/or general public opinion doesn't count to me. You gotta consider the source of the opinion. If people that listen to rap don't like my punk song, does that mean I wrote a bad song? I think Warrant's "Cherry Pie" is a millions-selling hideous piece of putrid vapid shit that exhibits everything that sucks about the glam rock 80s. Does that make it a bad song? I don't know. I just know it sucks to me and I would say "it's a bad song" but that doesn't mean it definitively is a bad song. It's just a song.
 
Songs like "Louie Louie" and "Surfin Bird" were indeed very influential to the punk movement. They're a good reminder that you don't have to be a virtuoso or some sappy overly-serious love poet to make good, fun rock and roll.
 
Greg_L said:
If someone says "that's a good song" or "that's a bad song" I think the "in my opinion" is implied, or should be implied, or inferred, depending on your point of reference.
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Agreed...and if thousands of people feel it's a good song, then it takes on a defferent level of "goodness" if you will....
...same if thousands of people feel it's a "bad song". Someone still acting like it's a "good song" has little weight, but everyone of course can have their personal opinon about things even if they may be the only person on the planet that thinks that way.

I mean...what's the point of talking about what we like or dislike if all it takes is one opposing opinion to "neutralize it"?
With songs written, recorded and performed for "public consumption"...there IS a judghement system that will lean one way or the other....like it or not.
 
miroslav said:
I mean...what's the point of talking about what we like or dislike if all it takes is one opposing opinion to "neutralize it"?
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Indeed. What is the point? There is no point. Anything subjective is completely pointless to talk about. What does one hope to achieve? You're either looking for validation of your opinion, or trying to convince someone else to think the way you do. That's what everything boils down to.

I don't buy the idea that thousands of people liking something gives it more credibility. Look at the pop charts. I think most of us in these online musician communities, regardless of our own hangups and respective styles and genres, can agree that stuff like LMFAO and Katy Perry carries little to no actual musical value. Most of us cork-sniffers and music snobs don't like that shit. There's millions of us. There are also millions of 12 yr old white girls that love that shit. Who's right? Who's wrong? No one. They're just songs. Some people like them, some don't. So what. It's all just trends and sales. That's the yardstick. The perceived value of music and art is reduced to trends and sales. I think that's wrong, and stupid, but I know I'm in the minority on that and to me that's pretty sad. If you accept that and just go along with it, that's your call. If being in a majority makes you feel better about your opinion, then rock on.
 
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