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Lambo
Banned
I still use a Roland DEP5; it's an oldy but definately a goody! 
dr.colossus
New member
SonicAlbert said:
Go on! You know you can't resist! I've seen them going for $150AUD thats about the same price as a 57, or half a dozen mic leads!
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
dr.colossus said:Go on! You know you can't resist! I've seen them going for $150AUD thats about the same price as a 57, or half a dozen mic leads!
You are clearly a bad influence on me.
valverec
Member
People use them because they sound good! The reverb algorythems (sp?) in some of those boxes are great. If you have 32 bit converters and a 384KHz sample rate, and your algorythems suck...your 32 bit converters will still sound bad. OTH if you have 16 bit converters and superb algorythems, chances are you'll still have superb reverb...unless they really screwed up the analog part of the chain really bad. Chances are though, if they have great algorythems, they probably have a great, or at least good analog piece of the chain.
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Beck
Guest
expatguy said:
Some of the older reverbs just sound “better” to many people. The REV7 and even SPX90 were used on countless albums. The older Lexicon PCM70 (heck, even the PCM 60 which toped out at 10kHz) run circles around many of the latest generation (Made in China/Malaysia) Lexicons. I prefer the simple LXP-1 to any of the MPX-whatever things I’ve heard in the last few years.
The sampling rate and bit depth may be greater on the latest whizz-bang, but it’s all about the algorithms. This is where spec sheets will really screw you up.
One thing digital does very well is reverb, echo, etc. In this role the processor doesn’t treat the whole sound… it just adds to the direct sound at comparatively whisper levels. Consequently, you don’t need a 24-bit, 20-20kHz processor to add spatial treatment to the direct sound. Even running directly through the processor and using the wet/dry mix level (rather than through an effects send) the direct sound is passed (hopefully) unchanged.
The SPX90, which tops out @ 12kHz still passes the direct signal @ 20kHz. Same with the LXP-1 and Alesis MIDIVERB II/III which top out wet @ 15kHz. The frequency response is not really a limitation. Natural reverberation doesn't even reach these frequencies in real life. 12kHz is very bright. 18kHz and up is inaudible for most adults... many are lucky to hear 16kHz.
I for one, jumped off the planned-obsolescence train years ago. Manufacturers introduce new products whether they’re needed or not. Many of the names we trusted so many years ago have changed to the degree that you can’t just run out and grab the latest offering and be assured of the quality.
Sales brochures will say you need hundreds of presets and eight effects running at once, but if you just need a convincing reverb you can’t beat some of the vintage units from the mid-80s to ‘90s.
My first digital effects processor was an SPX90 I bought new in 1986. Some of the bells and whistles, like the parametric EQ, pitch shifter, and compressor… well forget about it. But the reverbs and delay are quite versatile and usable. Though I have a rack full of newer (not the latest) processors I still keep the SPX around.
My newest processor is the Midiverb IV... gosh, I guess it's been a few years since anything really caught my attention.
Ah... here it is... A great article in Sound-on-Sound I ran across since last time we were discussing digital processors -- by Paul White... very good:
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/aug96/improvedreverb.html
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expatguy
New member
Just to confirm one point....
I'd like to confirm one thing here if possible.
When I started this thread I was under the impression that digital effects units would *totally* resample, say, a 96kHz-24 bit signal, resulting in a returned signal of only 44.1kHz-16bit. **overwriting** the original signal (resulting in a "diluted" signal that would then be resampled on aux in to the 96khz setting of the project.)
HOWEVER, this idea was wrong because the original signal is *not* overwritten, so the only important issue is the sound of the effects unit.
Gearmasters, does the Grasshopper now grasp the concept correctly?
I'd like to confirm one thing here if possible.
When I started this thread I was under the impression that digital effects units would *totally* resample, say, a 96kHz-24 bit signal, resulting in a returned signal of only 44.1kHz-16bit. **overwriting** the original signal (resulting in a "diluted" signal that would then be resampled on aux in to the 96khz setting of the project.)
HOWEVER, this idea was wrong because the original signal is *not* overwritten, so the only important issue is the sound of the effects unit.
Gearmasters, does the Grasshopper now grasp the concept correctly?
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
expatguy, I don't understand how you didn't understand it. What's all this about overwriting, and sampling at 24/96k and then downsampling/dithering to 16/44? It just doesn't make sense.
In a typical effects box the analog signal appearing at the "In" connectors is converted to digital, processed internally, and then converted to analog again before being sent to the outputs. Perhaps some of the earlier units would send the dry signal through an analog signal path, and convert a stream to digital for fx processing. But the basic concept is the signal gets converted to digital, processed, and converted back to analog. If the unit has digital I/O, there may be no AD/DA conversion necessary, but the processing stage would be the same.
Chances are, the internal processing will take place at whatever the sample and frequency rates of the converters are. Not always true, but usually.
It's a lot simpler than what you are making it out to be. At least, as far as we as users need to know to use the tools. I'm sure designing and coding an effects processor box is quite complex.
In a typical effects box the analog signal appearing at the "In" connectors is converted to digital, processed internally, and then converted to analog again before being sent to the outputs. Perhaps some of the earlier units would send the dry signal through an analog signal path, and convert a stream to digital for fx processing. But the basic concept is the signal gets converted to digital, processed, and converted back to analog. If the unit has digital I/O, there may be no AD/DA conversion necessary, but the processing stage would be the same.
Chances are, the internal processing will take place at whatever the sample and frequency rates of the converters are. Not always true, but usually.
It's a lot simpler than what you are making it out to be. At least, as far as we as users need to know to use the tools. I'm sure designing and coding an effects processor box is quite complex.
riffy
New member
Some of those older units just sound good so my guess is that keep them just for that reason. I still have my Ensoniq DP/4 that I bought brand new years back (ouch!) I also have a still use a Roland DEP-5.
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expatguy
New member
SonicAlbert said:
Yeah, I'm embarassed in hindsight. In a totally analog situation I would never have made this mistake. But I somehow got the impression that the process worked differently in a digital processing chain. I was seeing it as a totally linear process instead of parallel processing. Looking back, I'm not sure why. Still, I'm sure I'm not the first person to give all those digital numbers a significance they never had. (Never was good at math, anyway
.)Thanks for all your input.
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expatguy
New member
Thanks, Beck, for the detailed post, especially about the SPX90. They are going for a song on the auctions here. May as well get one for a song or two of my own. 
Thanks for the link. I stumbled across it a year ago, when I wasn't really thinking about reverb all that much. Recently, when I actually *wanted* to find it, I couldn't remember where I'd seen it. Great article. I already followed the advice with my Sony MP5 and got a much better reverb than any of the presets.
Beck said:
Thanks for the link. I stumbled across it a year ago, when I wasn't really thinking about reverb all that much. Recently, when I actually *wanted* to find it, I couldn't remember where I'd seen it. Great article. I already followed the advice with my Sony MP5 and got a much better reverb than any of the presets.
TuoKaerf
New member
There are certain units that do something that nothing else out there does. Like the AMS 1580.
Units like the Lexicon 480 L, TC Electronics M3000, and a TC 2290 will always have a plce in a studio until they compleately fall apart.
Units like the Lexicon 480 L, TC Electronics M3000, and a TC 2290 will always have a plce in a studio until they compleately fall apart.