Why Monitors?

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Bloodsoaked

Bloodsoaked

Death Metal Freak
Why do we need monitors for Mixing / Mastering? Is the point that if the mix sounds good on monitors it will sound good on any stereo (car, home, boom box, ipod, and so on)? Why is it so importaint to mix with monitors?


Thank you...
Peter
 
I guess the differences between the thousands of different listening situations mean that you want to start out with monitoring your mix on monitors that do not color the sound at all. I have a crappy monitor setup (for now), but my mixes have sounded OK to me in my vehicle, on my buddy's stereo, and on an ipod. But I was at my fave watering hole, and I thew it in a few thosand watt PA that they pump tunes through, and it seemed kinda muddy and undefined. The same PA makes "Start Me Up" by the stones sound like the greatest song ever recorded...(which, in my opinion, it isn't...)

I guess if you're just making tunes for your friends & you to listen to, then it doesn't matter. I'm 33, and have been at this music crap a long time. My first gig was at 14. When I turned 25, I realized I probably wasn't gonna be on the cover of Rolling Stone, much less "Under The Radar"....So I'm content with making tunes for me & my friends. Would I like to drop a few thou on some serious monitors? Sure. But then I'd have to upgrade the rest of my shitty setup for it to make a huge difference. I guess my point in a roundabout, half asleep way is...it depends on what you plan to do. ;)

BTW, that wasn't a knock against the stones...I just never cared for that song much. I prefer Exile on Main St.
 
"Studio Monitors" is somewhat of a "buzz-word" at this point.

Speakers generally known as monitors usually now refers to a short-throw, low dispersion, limited range, nearfield box that is meant to be listened to from a short distance to help take the room out of the equation. Few (if any) are "uncolored" and very few are "full-range" (no matter what the specs say).

As home & project studios started growing out of nowhere with rooms that really aren't designed for good acoustics, you need to make the room have less impact on the recording. Call it the lesser of two evils.
 
In the under ~$800/pr price range, "studio monitor" is a euphmism for "bookshelf speaker which they can sell at a higher profit than if they called it a 'bookshelf speaker'".

Whatever kid of loudspeaker system you use, the idea is to have something that allows you to make a mix that will "translate" well to playback systems other than in the studio. This requires two things of the "monitors": that they provide enough frequencies to allow you to mix without ignoring what's happening in major chunks of the audio spectrum, and that it provides those frequencies without excessive coloration that will make the translation process that much harder for the engineer.

Any speaker design that will accomplish those goals will work fine as a quality tracking/mixing monitor as long as the engineer actually knows what they are doing. For mastering, higher tolerances in the frequency response and accuracy are usually desired becaue good mastering involves higher-resolution detailing of the sound, and one therefore needs higher-resolution monitors.

G.
 
Studio monitors reproduce a very honest sound while normal bookshelf and computer speakers reproduce a sneaky sound, meaning they don't 'translate' the frequencies properly. So in that case, for example, if you were mixing a song with drums and guitar, and you over EQ'd the guitar just so it sounds good and pleasing, take it to your car's audio player, you might notice that the guitar is concentrated too much on the high end. While the drums are focused on the mids or lows. Personally, i still dont own a pair of studio monitors, not cause i think theyre useless, rather cause i dont have the money right now:(. But i have heard the differences between monitors and normal speakers...the gap in sound reproduction is humongous.
 
Oh chist, the bullshit just never stops on these boards, does it?

As Tracy Chapman said; "Gimmie One Reason"...

G.
 
studiomaster said:
Studio monitors reproduce a very honest sound while normal bookshelf and computer speakers reproduce a sneaky sound, meaning they don't 'translate' the frequencies properly. So in that case, for example, if you were mixing a song with drums and guitar, and you over EQ'd the guitar just so it sounds good and pleasing, take it to your car's audio player, you might notice that the guitar is concentrated too much on the high end. While the drums are focused on the mids or lows. Personally, i still dont own a pair of studio monitors, not cause i think theyre useless, rather cause i dont have the money right now:(. But i have heard the differences between monitors and normal speakers...the gap in sound reproduction is humongous.


Oh so quick to forget that 1000's of records have been mixed and referenced with bookshelf speakers. You know, those ones with the white cones. :D Southside and Massive are right, most studio monitors are BS until you get into what those guys have, however for most of us, we have to use what we can afford so we buy them and make them work. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all the speakers sound the same.
 
I dissagree guys,

When i sold my Sampsons 80 A and went to the regular home speakers,i have mixed few songs with them,and they sounded ok,but when i upgraded my monitors KRK v's,i seen the big difference,the high end and the low end especialy.The kicks would put a hole in your chest,and the hi's turn your face green.Now i take my mixes to my car and they sound just like i heard them in my studio.Even the home stereo downstairs was smiling at me :)

But i do agree,the cheaper monitors dont give you whatever it takes.I'd truely say dont go less than $1000 bottom line. I had Alesis mkII,Sampsons 80a's but nothing was right,it was closer with sampsons,but they were lacking that sertain frequency,or hyping other.

So i guess its all in the $$$$ :mad:
 
yea i can't help but disagree as well, going from a normal stereo speaker to a nearfield monitor made a huge difference for me
 
The key is they are supposed to be "reference" speakers. The Idea is to have a setup that is as flat as possible. That way you have your mix "referenced" to a flat response. Sure... on all the billions of other speakers in the world the mix will sound different, but that is expected. However if you listen to the song on a "flat" system it should sound close to how it was mixed.

Think of it this way:
Mix a song on Bass heavy monitors, your mix will actually have LESS bass on it than if you had mixed it on "flat" (less bassy) monitors. Your mix will have less bass than usual to the end listener. But if you listened to the mix on your monitors it will sound great.

BUT

You should be able to get any decent set of speakers to work for mixing / mastering. You use an RTA and a couple 31-band EQ's you can "flaten" your system. Keep in mind that your speakers in a different room will have different response, heck even re-arranging the furniture or adding a couch can change the response.

Another thing I do is listen to music to "zero out" my ears. I listen to something "classic" but that is high fidelity that I have heard many times on many systems. Then I'll listen to something that's about the same genra/ sound/ dynamics the mix should be similar to.
Finally I'll mix or master.
 
tarnationsauce2 said:
You should be able to get any decent set of speakers to work for mixing / mastering. You use an RTA and a couple 31-band EQ's you can "flaten" your system.
That is totally not true. Absolutely false. Peaks and nulls *in a room* are NOT going to be fixed by attenuating frequencies *at the speakers* - It can't be done.

Even IF the room is acoustically sound, any speakers that need to be EQ'd to be "flat" -- I mean, a 31-band EQ can't argue with physics. Either a speaker can faithfully reproduce the signal or it can't.

EQ'ing a live rig for a night or two in a particular room? Sure. EQ'ing a reference system to make up for poor acoustics or poor speakers? It doesn't work.
 
To say that, "I had a pair of bookshelves, and when I moved to 'Model X' monitors the improvement in sound was huge," says nothing more than your particular model of bookeshelves were not as good sounding as your particular model of monitors.

Your'e right, many bookshelves suck worse than a chest wound. No question. But frankly, so do many so-called "monitors". In my career I have worked with (and played with :p) certain models of "consumer" or "entertainment" loudspeakers both floor model and bookshelf from Utah, Infinity, Advent, Klipsch and Bose (and probably others that I forget offhand) that - for the same price or less - would in terms of accuracy of sound reproduction, ease of translation, and rate of ear fatigue absolutely blow away certain models of "monitor" from m-audio, Samson, Alesis, Mackie, Tannoy, and even Genlec (and probably others that I forget offhand).

Anybody that has ever been within a half-mile of a Yamaha NS10 will know just how bad pricey "studio monitors" can actially stink.

I've told this story once before, but it deserves telling again. I had a friend who once set up his recording room with a pair of Advent 5012w's (12" 2'way stand-mounted off the floor) topped by a pair of Advent 2002's (5" or 6" 2-way bookshelves.) He drove these speakers with a Technics consumer integrated amplifier. All middle-of-the-line consumer gear. His room had hardwood floors with plaster walls, but with an extreme mimimum of conventional interior decoration he got the room tamed fairly well. Well, I'm here to tell you that he/we were able to make the best mixes out of this absolutely gorgeous-sounding setup and room made out of not a single piece of "pro" gear in the monitoring chain itself.

I would probably take those old Advent "consumer" speakers over my current Mackie824 nearfields in a heartbeat. Don't get me wrong, I love my 824s, and my room is actually better than his room was, but nearfields just don't have the same feel as room speakers/monitors for me.

And as far as consumer bookshelves alone, I have a pair of Klipsch KG0.5 "bookshelves" haning on wall sconse brackets a few feet above my Mackies. I use the Klipsch as a cross-check/translation source, though not as much as I used to because I know my way around the 824s well enough now to translate without help. I used to have an old pair of Infinity RS10s (back before Infinity went overseas and got crappy) before the Klipsch that were even better than the Klipsch. I'm driving the Klipsch with a Denon consumer integrated amplifier. I'll take those Klipsch ($99ea when I got them in the late 90s) over half of the passive "studio monitors" I've heard for 150% that price.

This thing about "studio monitors" being "flat" or "flatter" than "entertainment speakers" is a load of crap in the econo-monitor price ranges. Some are, yes. Some are not. But here's the point to consider: if these "studio monitors" were so damn flat an accurate, how come no two of them sound the same? There are endless arguments on these boards about m-audio vs. Samson, KRK vs. Yorkville, Wharfdale vs. Tannoy, etc. etc. etc. If there is such a huge difference between brands as to be worth fighting over, there's no "accuarcy" or "truthfullness" in these things. You can't have fifteen different-sounding "truthful" monitors.

So this myth about "studio monitors" being better may apply in general when you get to the big expensive stuff (though I've heard some $4000 "consumer" loudspeakers in my time that would work well in any mastering suite), but in the budget range most often quited by your average home recc'r, the distinction can be more what's printed on the box than what's happening in reality.

G.
 
Massive Master said:
That is totally not true. Absolutely false. Peaks and nulls *in a room* are NOT going to be fixed by attenuating frequencies *at the speakers* - It can't be done.
Not to mention that even if it could be done, the phase distortions and non-linearaties that can be added by adding an EQ in the monitoring chain can work against any actual response advantages in a "one setp forward, two steps back" sort of way.

EQing the monitors to the room is an obsolete technique that fell out of favor years ago.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
EQing the monitors to the room is an obsolete technique that fell out of favor years ago.


I can't wrap my brain around this EQ concept.

Active EQ switches are ok, but outboard 31-band EQ's between the board and monitors isn't recommended?

Both are between the source and the monitors?
 
Massive Master said:
That is totally not true. Absolutely false. Peaks and nulls *in a room* are NOT going to be fixed by attenuating frequencies *at the speakers* - It can't be done.

Even IF the room is acoustically sound, any speakers that need to be EQ'd to be "flat" -- I mean, a 31-band EQ can't argue with physics. Either a speaker can faithfully reproduce the signal or it can't.

EQ'ing a live rig for a night or two in a particular room? Sure. EQ'ing a reference system to make up for poor acoustics or poor speakers? It doesn't work.
Of course, But most people don't have a perfect room.
The flattening I was mainly refering to was you should be able to use just about any good speaker (not-flat) to get as flat as possible by using EQ.
Point in case: For the last 10 years I have used a set of NS10s (OK we all know they are not "flat" at all). But I am pretty used to them. One of the woofers started fluttering and needed a recone. So for a while I used some Tannoy speakers that sounded completely different. But they were in the same spot (in the same room) as the NS10's were. I used an RTA and a 31-band EQ to give them a little bit to match them to the response curve of the one NS10 that sounded good. Once I did that to both Tannoys, it did sound a lot like the NS10s that I was used to. Yes there were differences, but sounded a lot more close to what I was used to than as if I would have just plug-n-played them.

SouthSIDE Glen said:
Not to mention that even if it could be done, the phase distortions and non-linearaties that can be added by adding an EQ in the monitoring chain can work against any actual response advantages in a "one setp forward, two steps back" sort of way.

EQing the monitors to the room is an obsolete technique that fell out of favor years ago.

As far as phase distortion and non-linearities that could be added by the EQs used, sure. But I am assuming the use of quality equaliers and quality cabling.

What is the standard these days? Just acoustically treat the room as best you can an hope for the best (well an RTA could still help w/ the treatment), using known quality speakers and completely flat signal chain?
 
The thing is that the room trumps the speakers - All the time, every time. EQ *can* make the speakers sound different, but if the room isn't physically capable of being reasonably accurate, no amount of EQ is going to correct it.

Speakers will only ever sound as good as the room allows them to. That's why nearfields are NEARfields.
 
tarnationsauce2 said:
As far as phase distortion and non-linearities that could be added by the EQs used, sure. But I am assuming the use of quality equaliers and quality cabling.
By design, most graphic EQs introduce such distortion, regardless of the cabling and regardless of the quality of components. One can use a linear-phase EQ, but those are not ideal for constant, real-time modification of the signal.

If one wants to chase the brass ring of flatness, there's nothing wrong with that. But I'd have to say, IMHO, that the few hundred dollars or thousand dollars or more that a quality EQ that would add minimal coloration to the signal would cost would be much better spent on a monitor upgrade and/or improved room treatment.

And, even more important than that is the fact that a good engineer with well-trained ears could get a better mix out of my $198 pair of un-EQ'd Klipsch bookshelves than most rookies with untrained ears could out out of a $4000 pair of high-end Genlecs going through a Manley Massive. But that's probably for another thread ;).

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Oh chist, the bullshit just never stops on these boards, does it?

As Tracy Chapman said; "Gimmie One Reason"...

G.


WTF are you talking about.

Its your self proclaimed elitist status, that's bullshit.

What was wrong with what he said.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
And, even more important than that is the fact that a good engineer with well-trained ears could get a better mix out of my $198 pair of un-EQ'd Klipsch bookshelves than most rookies with untrained ears could out out of a $4000 pair of high-end Genlecs going through a Manley Massive. But that's probably for another thread ;).
That is the most undebatable thing I've read in this thread.
My best piece of gear.... is my ear. :D
 
my measly pair of maudio monitors taught me a lot about what to listen to in certain speakers. sure, it took a year, but i can definitely hear all those crazy terms like "honk" and "bright" now.
 
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