why does my live mix clip even at low volume

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I have a chain of gear that goes: synths & drum machine -> audio patch bay -> mixer (Mackie CR1604-VLZ) -> audio interface (M-Audio Ozonic) -> speakers (Rokit 5). The interface is there for when I use the computer but in this question's context I'm not using a computer. I said "live mix" in the title in order to keep it short, but what I mean is that I'm just in my house playing my instruments through the mixer.

If I turn the volume up to a listenable level, whether on the instruments, the mixer, or the interface, the sound begins to clip. To avoid clipping I have to keep the total volume too low. It gets more unruly when trying to use one of the send/returns. (For this discussion, please just assume that the volume is in fact "too low" and not "listenable" even though those terms are subjective.)

I have the feeling that this is an amateur mistake and maybe an FAQ so I apologize for the question, but in any case, is there any simple (or not simple) fix to this type of situation?
 
Gain staging. first, check you’re feeling instruments into the mixer line inputs not the mic inputs. Then turn the channel gain down. turn the fader down. press the solo button and advance the gain control. The levels come up on the meters. Adjacent till the loudest signals don’t hit the red. With the masters down, advance the channel fader to maybe 75% of the range, then with the solo off, move the output fader to a similar level, so the output meters are not hitting red. The the next step is to adjust the interface gain on the computer so it’s input does the same thing, almost hits the red.
 
Are your synths and drum machine being input via MIDI? If so, those are usually going to be a little hotter on the meters. They may appear to be clipping when they're not.
 
sounds like you clipped going in.

once that happens, your stuck with it.

you can doctor it up,
but you never want to have to do that.
 
When the electronic parts of the rig are as loud as they can get, the sound at your ears isn’t loud enough? That means the part that turns it into actual acoustic SPL isn’t loud enough. Whether that’s amp/speakers or amp/headphone turn them up, and if they’re already all the way up, get “bigger” ones.
 
@rob aylestone The parts in your explanation didn't quite match up to my mixer, but your reply reminded me of a similar explanation that I had read (and since forgotten) in the mixer manual, and going through those instructions more or less did the trick. Thanks for your suggestion.

Thanks to everyone for all the replies.
 
55337, I have just discovered that the Ozonic is a keyboard controller with some audio interface functions and they are rather limited.
Most notably and moot is the maximum input level at its line inputs. Only +1.5dBV, under 2volts. That Mackie mixer will be capable of delivering at least +20dBu or around 8 volts. You will have to keep the meters on the mixer jeeust blipping the '0VU' LED to avoid overloading the controller. The latter has a fairly decent output of +10dBu* around 2.5V which should be enough to get plenty of level out of the monitors, assuming the controller has enough gain. If not you will have to crank up the speaker gains and that might lead to noise.

All the above assumes you are driving the monitors from the controller interface.

*The eagle eyed technical bods will have spotted the mix of level standards! Not my fault m'luds, way M-Audio writit!

Dave.
 
@ecc83 Thanks for the info, I haven't got the sound 100% yet so your extra hints is where I'll try next.

As for the Ozonic's interface functionality, it does the basics fine, gets audio into the computer and MIDI info out of the computer, which is enough for me. I got it for $20 so I wasn't expecting much more. And I don't use it as an interface as much as I use it as a controller.
 
55337 said:
@ecc83 Thanks for the info, I haven't got the sound 100% yet so your extra hints is where I'll try next.

As for the Ozonic's interface functionality, it does the basics fine, gets audio into the computer and MIDI info out of the computer, which is enough for me. I got it for $20 so I wasn't expecting much more. And I don't use it as an interface as much as I use it as a controller.
Click to expand...
Hang on! You said, "I have a chain of gear that goes: synths & drum machine -> audio patch bay -> mixer (Mackie CR1604-VLZ) -> audio interface (M-Audio Ozonic) -> speakers (Rokit 5)." Which means you are driving the Ozonic from the mixer and as I said that mixer is easily capable of clipping the very feeble (AFAICT) inputs on the Ozonic.

I suggest you rearrange things if you can so that the mixer becomes the last thing in the chain and drives the Rokits. I have a similar setup: DAC from TV to mixer (Behrry 1002) MOTU M4 to mixer and mixer drives Tannoy 5As. I can of course jack in any other source to the mixer. Sounds bloody gorgeous (Beet' 7th on at mo!)

Dave.
 
I see what you're saying. Right now I have the mixer main outs going into the L-R unbalanced line inputs of the Ozonic which as you point out is probably the main reason for my clipping problem so to solve that problem I assume I should just take the Ozonic out altogether.

The reason the Ozonic is in there is in order to record my multiple instruments as mixed on the Mackie into the computer, without the need to re-arrange cables any time I want to record, but I guess that if I'm recording like that then I'll have the same clipping problems since I'm back to Mackie → Ozonic? (Actually I have recorded into the computer before, but the levels have been quieter than I'd have liked.)
 
OK, I see that you need to have the mixer to get your instruments into the Ozonic to record them. What you need then is a stereo volume control in a tin between mixer OP and Oz IP. For normal speech levels on my mixer the LEDs blip regularly at -20VU and rarely 0VU and that gives me enough drive to my Tannoys. The Rokits might need more?

You could feed the monitors from the mixer and, as I do with my M4, run your AI back to the mixer line ins. NB! This setup CAN result in feed back but once aware should not be a problem. The stereo 'pot box' allows you to keep a healthy level tru the mixer but chop it down to keep the M-A from clipping.

I have looked for a pot in a tin but so far no joy. How's your soldering skill? Beer into water to make.

Dave.
 
The Mackie 1604 VLZ has RCA outputs available. Using those should make signal levels line up better.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
The Mackie 1604 VLZ has RCA outputs available. Using those should make signal levels line up better.
Click to expand...
You WOULD think those RCAs would at -10dBV but they are in fact the same as the main outs at +22dBu max i.e. +4dBu OP level. I have checked the manual but I suspected as much because my Behringer is the same and most are a close rip of Mackies!

However, OP could certainly use those RCAs in conjunction with the stereo pot box I mentioned.

Dave.
 
@ecc83
To clarify, the Mackie master volume should be at a healthy volume such as +10dBu in order to get the output as Mackie intended, but since the Ozonic only allow +1.5dBu the Mackie output has to be reduced, and that is what the stereo volume control is for?

A quick web search gave me this: https://www.instructables.com/DIY-stereo-volume-control-moduleeasy/ Will something similar to this do?

And in the middle of me checking the Mackie manual and writing a follow up question to @bouldersoundguy about the RCA outs, you beat me to it. :D Bit of a relief to hear I was reading the manual correctly.
 
55337 said:
@ecc83
To clarify, the Mackie master volume should be at a healthy volume such as +10dBu in order to get the output as Mackie intended, but since the Ozonic only allow +1.5dBu the Mackie output has to be reduced, and that is what the stereo volume control is for?

A quick web search gave me this: https://www.instructables.com/DIY-stereo-volume-control-moduleeasy/ Will something similar to this do?

And in the middle of me checking the Mackie manual and writing a follow up question to @bouldersoundguy about the RCA outs, you beat me to it. :D Bit of a relief to hear I was reading the manual correctly.
Click to expand...
Yes, that project is essentially what you want but you don't need the two pots nor the switches. You want RCA connectors or 1/4" jacks (or both!) If you want to have a crack at something I can draw up a simplified version for you.

Most mixers don't attenuate the TAPE/CD feed and I cannot see why? Even +4dBu would clip the inputs of most cassette decks, or close to it. Even most 'semi pro' open reel machines operate at -10dBV (0VU is usually 0dBu)

Dave.
 
@ecc83 Thanks, if you have something simple you could show me I'd love to give it a try.
 
ecc83 said:
You WOULD think those RCAs would at -10dBV but they are in fact the same as the main outs at +22dBu max i.e. +4dBu OP level. I have checked the manual but I suspected as much because my Behringer is the same and most are a close rip of Mackies!

However, OP could certainly use those RCAs in conjunction with the stereo pot box I mentioned.

Dave.
Click to expand...
They're "capable of" +22dBu, but they won't be putting out that level unless you run the signal up to the top of the VU meters. Mackie boards of this era refer 0 dBVU on the meter to 0 dBu at the balanced outputs. The unbalanced levels will be -6 dB from that, so 0 dBVU will give -6 dBu at the unbalanced outputs. I'm pretty sure the main and submix outputs are active balanced, while all the other balanced outputs are impedance balanced, so using the 1/4" main mix outputs unbalanced will probably give the same level as the RCA outputs. But in general I agree, running "normal" levels (averaging around 0 VU) will probably be a bit hot for an oversensitive input that might be more targeted to "instrument" level. I'd run the mixer with 0 VU as a peak level (which I think is consistent with what you said earlier).

I bet the mixer could be set up to feed the interface with a submix, and return the interface to channels or an aux return, then drive the speakers from the mixer main output. I'd have to think about the routing a bit, but I think it could be done.
 
@bouldersoundguy Thanks for the continued replies. The mixer has 4 stereo subgroups and outs for each. Going on your suggestion I'm guessing the procedure to be:
- mix the instrument tracks with 0 VU as the peak
- assign the instrument tracks to a subgroup
- connect the subgroup out to the Ozonic line ins
- adjust the mixer subgroup fader to a level that doesn't overload the Ozonic
- connect the Ozonic monitor outs to two unused track ins on the mixer
- connect the speakers to the monitor outs on the mixer

And so in this setup, when I do use the computer, the chain from the computer will be ready to go as computer → Ozonic → mixer → speakers.

Edit: I tried the above and all sorts of new issues arose, my grasp on these basic technical things is lacking so I think I just have to sit down with the mixer manual to properly figure this out.
 
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