Why does Doubling sound so much better than cloning/copying?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Alanfc
  • Start date Start date
Indeed Carlos

Its obvious



Anyways,

I like DAFDUC's idea about sloppy - this is great for me. I know I could never play so well as to have that problem the perfect singer had.
I must admit in the first few songs I have already finished tracking I've gone a little overboard with the cloning/copying. I think I'm going to go back in to those tunes and play some real doubled parts. The testing/practice I've done so far with doubling is sounding really cool (to me). Makes me sound like I'm playing through a wall of amps instead of my little 2x12.
 
Aaron Cheney said:
Cloning a track can work for certain things though, especially if the cloned track is shifted in time a little. The end result is not a so much a "doubling" effect, but more of a "panning" effect. Because the cloned part is just a fraction of second later than the first, it moves the stereo panning of that instrument to whatever side the cloned track is on.

Aaron
Click to expand...


Before I pick at that statement :D perhaps you can explain more by what you mean - "that the stereo panning of that instrument to whatever side the cloned track is on" ? Are you saying that due to the delay the ear will conceive the sound comming more from the cloned (delayed track? )
 
I don't want this to sound the wrong way but the idea of doubling is awesome and it's pretty old. Listen to the early stuff by Judas Priest, Iron Maiden, they had two guitar players for something other than looks. Double unison guitar parts sound great and clonation is just a technique that in MY studio is used very little. Mostly to replicate something later in the song (copy, paste to obtain repeat).

Carlos
 
Carlos-

Thanks- yes I'm starting to see that the cloning/ copying is more of a Tool than a "sound". I have to remember that with my computer I have alot of tracks to work with and I could even play a guitar part in 20 layers if I wanted to.

And after hearing that a little sloppiness in the multiple parts isn't so bad, I'm less intimidated by it. I used to think that there was NO WAY I could play my parts pefectly on top of each other and so I had avoided it. Never even tried it once.... favoring copying/cloning instead.

Back in Priest and Maiden days I was still learning the guitar, and even figuring out their stuff was enough of a challenge. So now that I'm my own "engineer" recording at home, I'm discovering all this like its new.

Thanks again
 
I think that thing about Metallica doing 20 over dubs is a bit much. I heard is was more like 9 (which is still a lot).
 
I don't remember where I heard it, was in the early 90s. I do remember hearing that Vai 'orchestrated' some of the melodies to about 30 guitars on at least on song with P.W., but who am I to say?

Just sounds like a neat idea:)

Take what it said as hearsay, please:)

Shawn:)
 
I read a little while back that Tom Petty and his guys will record guitar parts and then strap on capos and play it in another place on the neck. He said that you can get a lot of different timbers that way.
 
shawn gibson said:
I don't remember where I heard it, was in the early 90s. I do remember hearing that Vai 'orchestrated' some of the melodies to about 30 guitars on at least on song with P.W., but who am I to say?

Just sounds like a neat idea:)

Take what it said as hearsay, please:)

Shawn:)
Click to expand...

Whoa ! I'm gonna try that! "Hearsay"? - bah ! I don't mind,
I think it sounds cool too. "Its a crazy idea but it just might work!" (name the movie)
I have to play some things 30 times to get them right anyways- next time I'll save each run and see how they layer .
 
Shailat said:


Before I pick at that statement :D perhaps you can explain more by what you mean - "that the stereo panning of that instrument to whatever side the cloned track is on" ? Are you saying that due to the delay the ear will conceive the sound comming more from the cloned (delayed track? ) [/B]
Click to expand...

Yes, that has been my observation. I've done it to get guitars to sit in a mix with success.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
 
Aaron Cheney said:
Yes, that has been my observation. I've done it to get guitars to sit in a mix with success.

Aaron
[/B][/QUOTE] Aaron, It's quite th...a detailed explnation I'll write it out here.
Click to expand...
 
Alanfc said:
. "Its a crazy idea but it just might work!" (name the movie)
Click to expand...

-Houston 500
-Anal Intruders 8
-Armageddon
-Pocahontas...

:confused: :rolleyes:
 
I actually 'doubled' a guitar in my half-working state as-a-human-bean the other day, based on this thread. It's really wide, cuz it's panned wide, but I can't imagine getting 20-30 guitars down doing this. Cuz...you'd have to be a machine...or a good, really good, musician.

Here's my results for the intro of a song, just don't judge me on it:



ps, so now what I wanna do (other that write the freakin song) is do some cut guitars behind with min volume just to fill it out...or is that the whole point? - because if it is, I can't image even 4 guitars doing the lead. And re: Mutt Lange...I've been listening....it's all in the backgroud...the main guitars are never more than 1 or 2, or MAYBE 4....Shania, Def Leppard, etc...
 
Shawn-

I never did do the 20 guitars thing

On this thing I'm working on right now, I found that 4 separately played parts were plenty. A pair each panned 25% L&R, and two at dead center. (I may have to change that once vocals are added) 2 are parts as direct from the DI jack out the back of my amp and 2 were miked. My miked ones sound like crap - like an old transistor radio, but they really fill in the sound. When I mute the miked tracks I really notice a big void... I suppose I could add more but then it becomes matter of needing to cut the volume like you said , to keep them from overpowering the rythym section.

I'll check out your intro ! (by my internet is really slow and sounds bad with my connec.)
 
I know for sure when Anthrax came out with Sound Of White Noise, the big feature was the layering of 30 guitars. To me that seems like more than a little overkill. Personally I just do 1 part left, another part right. Or a part the A string, repreated on the E string. Or a part played with the bridge pickup, then doubled with a part from the neck pickup. I almost always end up panning this stuff left and right. Basically the most I ever end up with is 2 parts. Simply because based on my experiences, more parts make it sound like utter crap. I think its about clarity for me.
 
Don't waste your time Alan - it's an intro - not very far along.
:):):)

>>2 are parts as direct from the DI jack out the back of my amp and 2 were miked. My miked ones sound like crap

I don't know but it seems your mic isn't set up propperly, and what I'd suggest is ...play with it...if you can re-record it, don't thow it out, because I'll put my money on a mic over DI for anything any day, even if I can't do that in my apartment. Ask these guys around here, even with the best company resolution, ($2000 Boogie Preamp) direct is still...direct. I'm gonna buy a small Boogie amp next, and build a little box. stuff a cab in it...so I can mic.

Don't get right of the mic - just learn to use it. Honestly, FWIW. PLAY with it is what I mean. Move, grab it, move it over, listen, keep everything flat, and then have some fun...later.

Shawn:)
 
ps I LOVE Sound of White Noise...to listen to.

I was born to...(inserts his own inaudible thingie: fuck you!!! i was born to, oh, never mind...)

(maybe not the greatest album, but it SOUNDED great...and I liked it:))

Shawn
 
I recently dusted off my tape-copy of Anthrax's "Spreading the Disease" (I'll bet they wouldn't be allowed to release THAT in 2003 with SARS going strong! :eek: ) and it re-dawned to me that for some reason they managed to get that really compact hi-gain sound to tape, with clarity and all.

Usually, when metalbands use sick amounts of gain for the guitars, it becomes muddy. But not with Anthrax. Also, "Aftershock" is one hell of a song. Just like "Armed and Dangerous".
 
A band I was in 15 years ago we did alot of Priest, Scorps and Def Leppard, we always played on different parts of the neck for a thicker sound...

The good old days of hairmetal...


:p :rolleyes:
 
Shailat said:
Aaron,

It's quite the opposite. The localization of the sound will pull towards the source and not the delayed side.
See if you can read up on the "Haas effect". If you would like a detailed explnation I'll write it out here.
Click to expand...

I did just that.... and I stand corrected. Perhaps what I was doing in my mixes was sliding the cloned track earlier in time, rather that later. I just know that as I moved it, it pulled the apparent panning of the track towards itself.
Specifically, I was trying to get a nylon string guitar to sit in a dense mix. I tried many things, and ended up messing around with this principle, and it worked like a charm.

THe science of audio sure is a long learning curve.:)

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
 
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