Why does Doubling sound so much better than cloning/copying?

[Alanfc]

Why does Doubling and panning sound so much better than cloning/copying and panning? (using heavy rock guitar sound.)

I know most everyone says this is true but I ignored it until tonight when I finally tried it. Because I was always convinced that with my playing it would be muddy and sloppy - but I actually tried it and it was miraculous. Panning each 25% L and R . I'm never going back to cloning/copying again thats for sure

Question is- what are the reasons for this?

Doesn't seem like it should be that different if I'm panning the cloned parts just the same as I did with the human copies... Is it really just because of the Human Touch in both of the parts? What, Really ??

Anyone know the audio/physics/tech/whatever reason why?

Thanks

 

[Shailat]

Becuase a clone doesnt have:

* small pitch shifts
* random changes
* different attack times.

 

[Outlaws]

I think its called the hot spot. When two of something is played within 20 miliseconds of one another.

 

[moley]

I would have thought it's pretty obvious. You can't perform it exactly the same way twice - and it's the little changes that make it sound interesting.

 

[shawn gibson]

As an aside - what's the largest number of tracks you have typically 'doubled'? I've heard that Steve Vai, (old) Metallica, and others often play and bounce often 20-30 layers thick(?).

I'd love to try sometime for that 'really thick' sound where you almost can't tell what the actual notes being played are without a very careful listen, just hear a wall of harmony and melody.

Shawn

 

[Alanfc]

I would have thought it's pretty obvious.

That's really helpful thanks alot

 

[Pha'dur]

i have no idea what song it is, but i've heard that Enya did acoustic doubling on one song and it ended up with over 100 tracks of vocals.

 

[Pha'dur]

oh yeah and doubling as opposed to copying is just an extremely short delay.

 

[moley]

That's really helpful thanks alot

Well it's all very well just quoting that part of the post...

 

[Aaron Cheney]

As an aside - what's the largest number of tracks you have typically 'doubled'? I've heard that Steve Vai, (old) Metallica, and others often play and bounce often 20-30 layers thick(?).

I'd love to try sometime for that 'really thick' sound where you almost can't tell what the actual notes being played are without a very careful listen, just hear a wall of harmony and melody.

Shawn

Mutt Lange is the master of this (well.... VoxVendor too ). Just listen to Def Leppard or Shania Twain. Personally I don't dig it. I much prefer a song produced with minimalist intentions and lots of space to one overproduced and thick and too slick sounding. Listen to "Walkin' on the Moon" by the Police. Minimal, tasteful, wonderful uses of space. That's what I dig.

But regarding doubling, there are many ways to do it. Actually recording the part twice often works the best because (as stated before) the parts have subtle differences, and it actually sounds like two guitars (or whatever) because it is .
Cloning a track can work for certain things though, especially if the cloned track is shifted in time a little. The end result is not a so much a "doubling" effect, but more of a "panning" effect. Because the cloned part is just a fraction of second later than the first, it moves the stereo panning of that instrument to whatever side the cloned track is on.
I know what you're thinking: why don't you just pan the instrument there to begin with and save yourself the trouble of cloning it in the first place? Well.... it's different. It's my contention that most people can't really differentiate between slight panning in a stereo field. They can basically only hear Right, Center, and Left. But by using the cloning method, you can actually trick the ear into hearing spaces in between these spots.
Fiddle with it and you'll see what I mean.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[Alanfc]

Well it's all very well just quoting that part of the post...

Sir-

Indeed the main message of your post was extremely helpful. I appreciated it..... Sometimes the facts jumps right out into plain view when spoken out loud by another person.

But your opener (you actually took the time to type it)
came off as arrogant and I really don't think you want that. Depending on the time of day, in this case it was early morning, I might have just ignored it but not THIS morning....


So for the well-being of this board, I apologize for snapping at you.

-Alan

 

[Outlaws]

There is milk and cookies on the table, and Barney will be on in about 10 minutes, the episode is about SUCK IT UP

 

[moley]

But your opener (you actually took the time to type it)
came off as arrogant and I really don't think you want that. Depending on the time of day, in this case it was early morning, I might have just ignored it but not THIS morning....

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. I didn't need to say that at the start of the post.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

I'm feeling a lot of love in this forum....

OK guys, group hug!

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

 

[scottboyher]

This is nice.

 

[Cyrokk]

There is much more to work with and explore when doubling a part as opposed to cloning. Glen Tipton and KK Downing often played the same part at different parts of the neck to get a thicker sound. One of my favorite things to do is to have the second part play everything the same except for one note or phrase, giving a subtle touch that maybe no one but other musicians will pick up and appreciate (I always do stuff like that, even if I am the only one who knows it's there it's my own little signature or something )

The most I have layered is four guitars, each of them with different sounds to fill the midrange (and give a few options during mixing). However, I don't do this often because the amount of preproduction to pull it off can be a lot of work, plus if you are not careful you can encroach over other frequencies better left to the bass or even vocals. You also have to be extremely focused to keep everything as tight as possible.

Cy

 

[Alanfc]

There is milk and cookies on the table, and Barney will be on in about 10 minutes, the episode is about SUCK IT UP

Hey young feller move along, there's nothing to see here..
wait - - I think I already used that one on you in some other thread..

Don't you want to be in the group hug?

But you see, like I was talking about a few days ago, I actually just engaged in myself. My ego-driven reaction to someone's post spawned several more non-music related posts. And yet another one here now....

Adios to this thread !!! its wasting everybody's time now.


!! Unless we want to talk more about Doubling and Cloning ! yow

 

[Outlaws]

I want to clone Barney.

I will call it, The Barney Army.

 

[dafduc]

A little bit of slop really helps with doubling. I knew a singer once who was too precise to double. Her second take was so close to the first that she sounded like unison, some occasional phasing. They finally got another girl to sing the doubling track.

Daf (who also knows a guy who composes for Barney...)

 

[carlosguardia]

why does cloning sound so much better?!!

Well, maybe I'm old school and please don't take it the bad way but I just HAD to say this.... to me it's JUST OBVIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carlos