FALKEN
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how do you keep the drums out of the vocal mic?
gummblefish
Twitchy Wanker
FALKEN said:
For a start i would use a supercardiod Dynamic mic and have it facing away from the drum kit. Maybe put up some gobos as well.
B
bigtoe
New member
you don't, in my experience. you use the bleed as a part of your drum sound.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
i know you don't want to hear from me because everyting I say is always wrong but...
1. Face the vocalist towards the drums with a cardioid mic facing away from them.
2. Put the vocalist in a vocal booth or put a Reflexion filter around the vocal mic.
3. Gobos/blankets around the drums. if you're getting to much reflection around them, then the number of and/or placemet of the baffles is inadequate. If you're getting a bad reflection around a gobo, kill the reflection.
4. Accept some bleed. If the bleed is so strong as to adversely affect the sound of the drums in the mix, then you have waaaaay too much bleed and need to go back and look at points 1, 2 and 3 again.
5. If you still have too much bleed, get a larger room or better iso booth.
or, my favorite...
6. You can have the vocaists sing when recording the rest of the band, but just don't keep the vocals. Then playback the band mix in the vocalists' headphones and record the vocal clean as an overdub.
G.
1. Face the vocalist towards the drums with a cardioid mic facing away from them.
2. Put the vocalist in a vocal booth or put a Reflexion filter around the vocal mic.
3. Gobos/blankets around the drums. if you're getting to much reflection around them, then the number of and/or placemet of the baffles is inadequate. If you're getting a bad reflection around a gobo, kill the reflection.
4. Accept some bleed. If the bleed is so strong as to adversely affect the sound of the drums in the mix, then you have waaaaay too much bleed and need to go back and look at points 1, 2 and 3 again.
5. If you still have too much bleed, get a larger room or better iso booth.
or, my favorite...
6. You can have the vocaists sing when recording the rest of the band, but just don't keep the vocals. Then playback the band mix in the vocalists' headphones and record the vocal clean as an overdub.
G.
bennychico11
...
SouthSIDE Glen said:
bingo!
you so smarrrrrrt
punkin
Univalve & Avatar Speaks
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Good points! I'd add that you might consider running an extra-long mic cable to the next room, close the door and let the singer do his thing in the next room. I for one don't worry too much about the bleed through just accept it and mix with the "live vibe" in mind. As already mentioned, if the bleed through is over powering the vocal mic then you've simply got a problem that only level control or isolation will resolve.
timboZ
New member
Number 6....
O
ofajen
Daddy-O Daddy-O Baby
SouthSIDE Glen said:
As usual, good advice, Glen. Number 6 has generally been preferable to the others, in my experience. On the bigger projects I've recorded, I've either:
1) abandoned the notion of hearing vocals at all while recording the basic tracks and just focussed on getting the basic tracks sounding good live while everyone monitors without headphones, with the intention of overdubbing vocals, or
2) have everyone (who needs to) listen in on headphones to the vocals, but only record them as a scratch track, if at all, with the intention of overdubbing vocals later.
Those have been the quickest, best-sounding, least troublesome options on my projects.
Cheers,
Otto
FALKEN
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thanks all for the advice. We're going for a dry-as-fuck drum sound but with live vocals "all in one room" so you could see the problems I am having....
A
AGCurry
New member
A variation on Glen's #1: You may actually get more isolation and less bleed using a figure-of-eight-patterned microphone and taking advantage of its superior rejection in its nulls. A bidirectional mic results in less room sound than a cardioid.
B
bigtoe
New member
sometimes. sometimes a figure 8 actually just picks up more verb as it's picking up reflections. that is a good call if it works...
try positioning the singer closer to the drums...it seems counter intuitive but you get cleaner bleed.
i'm working on a brazilian thing tonight thru the xmas eve...4 of the tracks have live vocals...2 drum sets and about 50 pieces of percussion with an ampeg svt bass amp, a dr z maz 18 guitar amp, a fender rhodes thru i forgot to look and a sax/flute. all in the same room. i'm setting everyone up fairly tight...as they set up in practice...
MIke
try positioning the singer closer to the drums...it seems counter intuitive but you get cleaner bleed.
i'm working on a brazilian thing tonight thru the xmas eve...4 of the tracks have live vocals...2 drum sets and about 50 pieces of percussion with an ampeg svt bass amp, a dr z maz 18 guitar amp, a fender rhodes thru i forgot to look and a sax/flute. all in the same room. i'm setting everyone up fairly tight...as they set up in practice...
MIke
FALKEN
*************************
bigtoe said:
I'm jealous.
A
AGCurry
New member
bigtoe said:
It sounds counterintuitive that a bidirectional mic would pick up less of the room, but it's true. Look at the polar-pattern diagrams.
On the subject of "cleaner bleed," the thing that no one's brought up is the off-axis response of whatever mic you use. If it's poor, you get "bad bleed."
O
ofajen
Daddy-O Daddy-O Baby
AGCurry said:
Watch out. If there is significant reflected sound of a coherent nature coming back off a ceiling or wall, your sound will be crap, because the back lobe of a fig-8 is opposite polarity.
Cheers,
Otto
B
bigtoe
New member
falken- i know - it's pretty sweet...though we'll see how i feel at 2AM tonight. 
100% agree AG - it's just if you point the mic away from the source you might be getting unwanted reflections of the source elsewhere...i'd think the figure 8 thing would work well...i've done it with some success using 414's and coles...never on a vocal but on guitars and overheads. voclas usually require so much gain that the bleed is even worse...
amen on the cleaner bleed!
ok, later!
Mike
100% agree AG - it's just if you point the mic away from the source you might be getting unwanted reflections of the source elsewhere...i'd think the figure 8 thing would work well...i've done it with some success using 414's and coles...never on a vocal but on guitars and overheads. voclas usually require so much gain that the bleed is even worse...
amen on the cleaner bleed!
ok, later!
Mike
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jdier
New member
I disagree with the figure 8 thing. I use them in the room setting (like a 414 on figure 8 or my old Studio Projects C3 on figure 8) and invariably they pick up just about everything in the room. I can see how you might be able to minimize the bleed of a certain instrument, but if you have bass, guitars, and drums all in one room I can't see how you could possibly get a usable main vocal track doing it with a figure 8, but have not tried it so I should shut up.
I have done a few projects like this and while the singer has never let me use the vocals from the first tracking session (with the band in the room) I have argued more than once that they were definately good enough to use and wish he would have used them.
My #1 suggestion is the make sure you are using a dynamic cardioid mic. I have tried my large diaphrams for this and they pick up too much of the room sound. My best results came from a Shure Beta 58, but I have also had success with a regular sm57. I have a Beyer M88 which is hyper cardioid but for some reason I could not get it to pick up the vocals evenly enough for it to be usable unless I compressed the balls out of it.
In both cases I dumped the pop filter so he could get up nice and tight on the mic.
I also employed some of the other suggestions listed above, gobos around drums, back of mic pointed so it does not pick up too much of the drums.
I am really just reguritating stuff I have read that Fletcher from Mercenary has shared. His site is a wealth of information and he shares a load of great information on these sites. I really dig his posts and the info he shares because:
1. Everything he has suggested that I have tried has worked.
2. He often suggests a number of tools, so when I do not have a Cole 193b-xlt ribbon with the Don Lupmert mod, he ha also provided some ideas of more pedestrian mics which could also work which I may have... like a Shure 57 or a Senn421.
3. His posts a freakin' funny.
Here is one such link:
http://www.mercenary.com/bainrofge.html
The other great one there is the 3 mic drums deal. It starts just talking about drums but bleeds into discussion about tracking in a room.
http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html
Best of luck to you. Have fun. If you put in the time and have the patience to get it all set up right (and it seems like you do) you should be pleased with the results.
Later,
Jim
I have done a few projects like this and while the singer has never let me use the vocals from the first tracking session (with the band in the room) I have argued more than once that they were definately good enough to use and wish he would have used them.
My #1 suggestion is the make sure you are using a dynamic cardioid mic. I have tried my large diaphrams for this and they pick up too much of the room sound. My best results came from a Shure Beta 58, but I have also had success with a regular sm57. I have a Beyer M88 which is hyper cardioid but for some reason I could not get it to pick up the vocals evenly enough for it to be usable unless I compressed the balls out of it.
In both cases I dumped the pop filter so he could get up nice and tight on the mic.
I also employed some of the other suggestions listed above, gobos around drums, back of mic pointed so it does not pick up too much of the drums.
I am really just reguritating stuff I have read that Fletcher from Mercenary has shared. His site is a wealth of information and he shares a load of great information on these sites. I really dig his posts and the info he shares because:
1. Everything he has suggested that I have tried has worked.
2. He often suggests a number of tools, so when I do not have a Cole 193b-xlt ribbon with the Don Lupmert mod, he ha also provided some ideas of more pedestrian mics which could also work which I may have... like a Shure 57 or a Senn421.
3. His posts a freakin' funny.
Here is one such link:
http://www.mercenary.com/bainrofge.html
The other great one there is the 3 mic drums deal. It starts just talking about drums but bleeds into discussion about tracking in a room.
http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html
Best of luck to you. Have fun. If you put in the time and have the patience to get it all set up right (and it seems like you do) you should be pleased with the results.
Later,
Jim
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M
MCI2424
New member
SouthSIDE Glen said:
1-6 is wrong. The rest is OK
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
OK, I had that one coming, didn't I?MCI2424 said:
G.
R
Robert D
New member
Number 9? Number 9?
M
mixsit
Well-known member
All the more reason to suround the kit with gobos (and don't forget above). Two birds for one... Tightens up the rest of the room and the other things in the room.FALKEN said:
Me again.