who comes 1st tha producer or the rapper

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Gec,

I agree with 75% of what you're saying (yes, I read the entire post), but there are a couple issues that I have a problem with, or I may just be hoping they're not the case.

First, I hope I'm not being compared to Em. If you listen to my music as compared to his I can't see what similarities you would find other than we are both caucasian. I cannot, and probably will never be able to, touch his flow, delivery or word usage. I'd be suprised if anyone today can. But that's now what I set out to do. Can various forms of hip-hop survive at the same time? That remains to be seen, but I cannot see why not.

Most hip-hop music gravitates around urban lifestyles and attitudes. As you said, most hip-hop is bought by suburban white kids who can't directly relate to it. Alot of these same kids are listening to electronica yes, but they are also buying a vast array or other types of music. Dave Matthews is not going multiplatinum in the hood nor does he even appeal to that market, neither does Incubus or Staind or even Limp Bizkit. Why are these artists going platinum? They have good instrumentation teamed with songwriting people can relate to. Give them hip-hop beats with Dave Matthews style songwriting and I think they'll eat it up, although I could be wrong.

Will the DJ Revolution happen in the way you're talking about? I don't know. But I can tell you I know alot of cats who listen to Paul Oakenfields and Orbital and Crystal Method and others, I do myself. The problem with this type of music is that it really only suits one frame of mind. Partying. This type of music isn't really suited for chilling out, having sex (well unless you're both rolling), as background music or for just stimulating some introspective thinking. The bulk of this type of music contains no vocals so there is nothing there to relate to. Couple that with the majority of CDs these artists are featued on coming in the form of mixtapes and that doesn't amount to platinum sales for the artist. Again, will it happen? I don't know but I'm hoping not, this music gets on my nerves after the 1st song unless I'm in a club or a rave and basically wasted.

Just my 2 pennies.

Stray

www.mp3.com/PerpetualProductio
 
crosstudio said:
i gotta disagree with Gec about the reason white kids make up 70% of the hip-hop market.

it isn't because of the mix-tapes, it's because there are more of you than us. blacks make up 12% of the population.

if you figure that blacks are 12%, hispanics are 12% and (i'm guessing here) other races makes up 6%, then whites account for 70% of the population. which means that hip-hop has done a great job of marketing to all races.
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You didn't read it thoroughly enough. I said white kids contribute to the sale of records by 70%. I did not say they make up 70% of the hip hop market. I clearly stated that regarding record sales. I also stated that mix tapes were a portion of the reason...never said it was the entire reason.....as population figures like you stated also are a contributing factor.
 
stray411 said:
Gec,

I agree with 75% of what you're saying (yes, I read the entire post), but there are a couple issues that I have a problem with, or I may just be hoping they're not the case.

First, I hope I'm not being compared to Em. If you listen to my music as compared to his I can't see what similarities you would find other than we are both caucasian. I cannot, and probably will never be able to, touch his flow, delivery or word usage. I'd be suprised if anyone today can. But that's now what I set out to do. Can various forms of hip-hop survive at the same time? That remains to be seen, but I cannot see why not.


Stray

www.mp3.com/PerpetualProductio
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Hey bro,

This was just my Opinion nobody said I was right. I spoke on it and laid out my thoughts. I'm not like Czar and gonna argue with anyone over somethin stupid like this. I will revert to my statement regarding the comparing to eminem

gec said:

even though these points may have no merit or bearing on the white persons music....there are major prejudices that occur...spoken or not spoken this is what they see.... Can you blame them? Probably not, they wanna make money bottom line... and if they can't market you correctly it don't matter how good your music is. Another words in this case it is much easier to market an average black rapper than a superstar white rapper to the american public.
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Gec,

I knew that's what you meant. 70% of sales.

Stray411,

every white rapper no matter what style WILL be compared to Em. it's unfortunate and unfair but it is the truth. everytime a black guitarist comes along in the rock genre the first thing said is 'hendrix', and he's been dead for 30 years.
 
Gec,

I was in no way, shape or form trying to start an argument, but merely stating my opinions. Notice my first statement. I respect your views and will say you may very well be 100% correct. Again, I'm hoping this isn't the case.

One thing I don't understand about this discussion is this. Vanilla Ice and/or Eminem did not generate even 10% of their sales from the black market. I concede that the black community will probably judge every white cat in comparison to Eminem. But, I can't say that I think the record buying community would think the same way.

There have been plenty of white rap acts before and after both Eminem and Vanilla Ice. Why do white rappers have to be compared to the best in the game? If the record buying community felt that way No Limit and Cash Money would never sell records in anywhere but their home town. They can't come close to comparing to Biggie or Tupac and I don't think anyone would disagree with me on that.

Just my opinion and I'm not arguing.

Stray

www.mp3.com/PerpetualProductio
 
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It's not always a bad thing per se being compared to em', as long as you write tight lyrics and can freestyle well. In fact, it can help you, because he showed lots of people that whites aren't always wack vanilla ice's. I've spit stuff and had people off all races givin' me props...just depends on who's hearing you I guess.
 
IT ALL DEPENDS

in wat situation

for a hit record

the producer

for longetivity in the hip-hop game.....the emcee


but for me its equal how many tracks with dope beats have u not listened to because the mc is wack, and how man beatshave u listened to because the mc was dope?
 
I agree, a smart white rapper would try 2 use that situation 2 his advantage, rather than come up with "tha next big thing" 'coz they won't buy it.
 
In the past I would say that the artist was more important. Production just wasn't at the same level it is today. There is so much a producer can do to augment an artists abilities today that the artist needs very little talent.

In the past the artist had to actually have good takes. Cutting and pasting with analog tape is infinitely more difficult that waveform editing. Add to that current products such as AutoTune, intelligent harmonizers and Variphrase technology and even a tone deaf person could sound good (some are on your radio right now).

I love technology and new toys, but there has to be some limit. Records are being mass produced today that are uninspired and lacking any real talent other than the production department. Yeah, we have all these great toys, but do we have to sacrifice artistic merit for new technology.

To answer your question, without a doubt the producer of today is more important than artist. The question is, can and will this change?

Stray

www.mp3.com/PerpetualProductio
 
you know what's the worst part of this conversation:

listen to Vanilla Ice, and then listen to Ice T.

are you telling me that Ice T was a better rapper than Vanilla Ice?

Vanilla Ice was not without talent, he just lied about his 'street rep'. Of course Ice was no Everlast.
 
I'd agree producers are more important!

Gec! there have been lots of white rappers before eminem, just none to reach eminem fame. There are more now starting becuase of eminem, but most just becasue it's been a general prorgression that way for years.

Eminem's freestyles are written's for the most part too.
who ever said it's good to be compared to him in all ways.

hiphop is the culture/rap is the music, there's hiphop music, but the music isn't hiphop. people just use it to separate, and naturally try to categorize everything.

Gec you also said somehting unbeleivably stupid. A white guy can not be too pop oriented or he'll get stomped, or soemthing to that . try backstreet boys, nsynk and hundreds of other pop groups that are white. Anything will sell if marketed/promoted right.

White kids arn't all form the suburbs! but i agree it's hard for them to pull off a hard persona, even if they are.

White emcees will only be truly compared to eminem from suburban kids or kids who have no knwledge of hiphop, who thought eminem was the first white rapper. Everyone will be compared to whatever regardless, so it doesn't matter anyways.

good replies to all, peace.
 
PRiZ-one said:
I'd agree producers are more important!

Gec! there have been lots of white rappers before eminem, just none to reach eminem fame. There are more now starting becuase of eminem, but most just becasue it's been a general prorgression that way for years.
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If you read my post I believe I named alot of white rappers that were around before eminem.



PRiZ-one said:
Gec you also said somehting unbeleivably stupid. A white guy can not be too pop oriented or he'll get stomped, or soemthing to that . try backstreet boys, nsynk and hundreds of other pop groups that are white. Anything will sell if marketed/promoted right.
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I must not be reading this correctly, but then again it's here in black & white. Let me get this straight - I said something stupid?

THEN YOU COMPARE THE BACKSTREET BOYS & NYSNC TO HIP HOP....
 
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He didn't call you stupid. He just said you said something stupid :D.

And I did read your post :D.

As with everyone else…Cats either gotta earn respect or buy it. Em, 3rd Base, and Beastie Boys earned it while having good financial backing. NSYNC bought it. Vanilla Ice got lucky cuz nobody ever respected him. Don’t get it twisted money never leaves the picture when pushing/promoting white boys doing black music (Elvis). Funny how white people turn up their noses at white rappers then buy the hell out it and still dis him. Black cats just shrug and say “ It’s tight” but fuck him (buying the shit to). The TV grabs him and places him in the spot light making the shit appear bigger than it really is. Now everybody’s mad cuz it’s all hype and the slow lame people are still falling for it. By this time the music doesn’t really matter any more. Unless it’s controversial and kinda tight (Em and Elvis).

My opinion.
 
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without an emcee, it wouldnt be hiphop, without a tight producer, it wouldnt be music.

i personally cannot emcee, im the producer, i make the beats that all my friends rhyme on. if it wasnt for me all my friends would just talk about emceeing, and do gay freestyles with eachother- over someone spitting and slobering all over themselves;

i make the shit happen, i get everyone together, i record, i direct, i master, i make the beats, i even write choruses and lyrics, hell, i work to buy all the equipment.

but then again, i need my friends. it feels so good when i hear someone lay a tight rhyme over my beat. it puts it all together.

the producer is the begining and the end. the emcee is the delicious fill that brings both together.
 
g-e-c, your post (the long one) was very impressive. And I agree totally with you.......

Once again........ kudos. ;)
 
stray411 said:

1. ...Will the DJ Revolution happen in the way you're talking about? I don't know.

2. But I can tell you I know alot of cats who listen to Paul Oakenfields and Orbital and Crystal Method and others, I do myself. The problem with this type of music is that it really only suits one frame of mind. Partying. This type of music isn't really suited for chilling out, having sex (well unless you're both rolling), as background music or for just stimulating some introspective thinking.

3. The bulk of this type of music contains no vocals so there is nothing there to relate to.

4. Couple that with the majority of CDs these artists are featued on coming in the form of mixtapes and that doesn't amount to platinum sales for the artist.

5. Again, will it happen? I don't know but I'm hoping not, this music gets on my nerves after the 1st song unless I'm in a club or a rave and basically wasted......
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1. Yes, it will happen that way. To be totally honest with you, it IS already happening that way (I will explain that in my next post to g-e-c. ;)

2. The reason it-only-suits-one-frame-of-mind is because you (and other people in America) only hear that type of music in the clubs. But….. In every other country around the world you will hear House/Dance music all day and night long on the radio. You have to remember that in the not to distant past, there wasn’t any Hip-Hop, let alone Hip-Hop played on the radio. Hell., back-in-the-day, that’s all you would listen to when you were gettin’ down’ wit’ cha’ girl was some good dance music or some disco. Plus, the artists you mentioned and some of the venues (raves) they play are considered Techno/Progressive/Trance oriented. There are plenty of genre’s of House music, (ie; Vocal, Electronic, Soulful, Ghetto, Filtered, Gospel, Commercial, 80’s Electro, Garage, etc……).

3. Refer to the end of #2. ;)

4.That is sooooooooooooo untrue. There are a myriad of House artists that go platinum. One of my very close friends, Paul Johnson (from the Far-Southside of Chicago), went platinum from one 12” record named ‘Get Down’, and that was just from his sales in France. :eek:

5. The change is coming, and they are trying to get the population acclimated with hearing house music on a daily basis (just listen to the bulk of music playing in the background of these commercials on telvision, the bulk of these kids videos, and the video games on XBOX-PS2-Game Cube ). Heck, the majority of the House music videos ARE cartoons. What do you think younger kids enjoy watching?……….. Cartoons. J

Peace…..
 
gec said:


1. ...........DJ Revolution.... and it is coming hard and fast....

2. Today DJ's are entering the mainstream and becoming famous more than ever... 4 years ago you never new DJ's from other cities by name if you were just a fan...Todays DJ's are not only DJ's but also producers...

3. They will play an instrumental role in the next decade on what you listen to as they are playing both sides of the fence. They also are getting signed to labels as artists and getting sponsorships from major corporations..... That shit didn't use to happen....

4. What I believe you will see in this revolution is a big push on house music and rap fading back some..... Fuck...go into any nightclub across America and you will find them spinning house music....what else do you see jam packed in these clubs... "white Kids" who are also hip hop fans who are also the ones who buy 70% of the music.....

5. The problem is they only hear the house music in the clubs and on mix CD'x they buy from the club DJ. The music has been fought off big time by the major players because believe me they understand what it will do american pop culture....... You start to put that shit on the radio as much as hip hop and watch the transition....

6. Right now Radio DJ's have no say or little say in what is played on their spot.... alot of that has to do with "payola" < see my post in the marketing forum under indie promotion radio play.....

7. Anyway, the bottom line is these DJ's are going to come to the for front and are gonna bring this music with them..... you take a kid leavin the club...for 3 hours he was just bouncin wit some fuckin dope ass house music...he gets in his car puts on the radio...he don't have a choice right now, but if he did.... as hip hop fans what do we strive for in the music? Great fuckin beats.....what the fuck is house music...get me :D :D :D :D
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1. I agree with you, g-e-c.

2. That is oh-so-true. Dj’s are starting to become syndicated. Meaning, they are trying to with the companies that will but there mix set into multiple markets across the country (normally, 30 to 80 separate cities) on a daily and or weekly basis.

3. That is correct. The larger companies have observed how dj’s influence and manipulate the masses with music. And, in order for the larger corporations to control the masses they need to have control over the controller, the DJ (and they do that through the sponsorship). ;)

4. That is very true, and I touched on that fact very lightly in my previous post. J
But, I would like to add that….. I have tried to share the fact with a lot of my Hip-Hop format only dj friends that they need to diversify there music and playing habits (just like I tried to share with my House format only dj friends when Rap was creeping up from behind in the mid 80‘s). :rolleyes:

5. THEY have been trying very, very hard (and They have done a very good job) to keep House/Dance music off of the radio air during regular hours. The major reason was stated in the answer g-e-c gave in #7).

6. Again, I agree 100%. The radio do still doesn’t have any real leverage in terms of what he/she can or can’t play. The Program Director and the Music Director tell the do’s what they HAVE to play. L
The reason the PD and MD are so adamant about the dj’s play list is because the PD and the MD are being paid REAL money, gifts, and favors for the music to be added as mandatory to the dj’s play list. :eek:

7. THEY know that the people will turn on the House music. Once again, back-in-the-day, we would listen to House music going to the club, at the club, and leaving the club. On the way to the club, you would listen to House music on the radio or on a cassette tape to get charged-up fpr the party. And, of course, you would enjoy it in the club or at the “house party”. You would also listen to a more chilled out version of House music on the way home from the party .

Remember that music and trends revolve in 20 year cycles, so fortunately or unfortunately, “it” is coming…………………………….. :eek:

Again, peace………………..
 
Spin,

All I'll say is what I've said already. I HOPE this isn't the case, but from what you're saying we'll see soon enough.

Stray
 
CFLOW I just have to say this one thing and that is your not a producer if you can't engineer a producer has to be able to do all of that and make sure that the engineer is fullfilling the sound that the producer wants for that song that's why some producers on the underground level engineer themselves because noone around can still do what they want to there satisfaction with there resources
 
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