Which Mic? (I know. Here we go again)

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jtomme65

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I am looking for something to record trumpet.
I have been playing trumpet for 35 years.

I have ok results with the AKG for nice pretty soft stuff. But for lead sounds its not working for me. The closest thing was the Shure SM-57 My Budget is $1500

Haves:
AKG C414
AT 4040
Blue Bluebird
R0DE NT-5 pair
SM-57
SM-58
various other
CAD,AT,No Name mics.
RNP,ME-1NV, MOTU 896, MOTU Ultralight MkIII, RNC,RNLA,MAC,PC,Logic and Sonar

So help me out which mic would you guys use? Are there any techniques for getting a wide dynamic range from trumpet that I have not been smart enough to figure out?

I don't really have an opportunity to "try out" mics. So I am gonna have to lay down cash and go from there.

I have some ideas but I don't want to limit the discussion to "Mic A vs Mic B" or some such
 
My next guess would be a better dynamic, Senn MD421 or 441, Beyer M88. Any of those is way less than your budget.
 
mshilarious said:
My next guess would be a better dynamic, Senn MD421 or 441, Beyer M88. Any of those is way less than your budget.
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The Sennheiser was not something I thought of. I could get one of those AND a new pre.... so..... I will give in. I was thinking of a royer R-121 or R-101. A sales guy has really been trying to talk me into a Ribbon. Any success out there with Ribbons on Brass?
 
I use the Shure Beta 56 on the trumpets in horn sections live. Have you ever checked them out?







:cool:
 
Brasses tend to do well with ribbon mics. Not a live mic, but does well with brasses with high SPL limits. Dynamics for their SPL tolerance as well, but I've never really found them to be complimentary to most brasses. Some condensers will work, with a high enough SPL spec. Each with their own quirks.

Dynamics - Need a good preamp, need some proximity, can't move around a lot without affecting the result. And even with a good preamp, not quite a what you hear is what you get type mic.

Ribbons - Also need a good preamp and proximity. Figure of 8 so you can pick up some odd reflections that might be too severe a consequence for your needs. And hates wind, which can actually break such a mic. Not that you'll generate enough at the horn, but if you travel with it, or just relocate the mic across a room, that could be all it takes. Otherwise they do very well on the brasses.

Condenser - Needs phantom power, beyond that preamps are not as important. Generally have low SPL ratings (for brass), so you have to watch your specs before buying. Might be too sensitive if you're noisy near the mic. Heavy breather, belly growls, snort when circular breathing, noisy valves, and other things. And can change character if you use more than a two octave range.

In studio - Ribbon - Cascade Fathead II

On stage - Dynamic - SM57

Soloist - Condenser - Most non-vocalist / transparent ones with high(er) SPL ratings (140dB-ish).

IMO

I like my STO-2's for trombone. And lots of other stuff. But not an all purpose mic if you want to isolate (directional) or work on soft stuff (high noise floor). But generally not a problem given the SPL output of the source relative to most environments.
 
The ME-1NV probably has you covered for preamp.

Heard nice things about the AEA R84 if you want to try out the ribbon thing. Never tried one though. Ribbons tend to have an excellent reputation on brass and the R 121 is a nice mic.

I'm also curious about the new Shure ribbon mics as they seem to have inherited Crowley and Tripp. The R84 has a good reputation but it would be sensitive (ie. you could break the ribbon easily) to air blasts. Royers are fairly hardy mics but it's still an issue. Placement and room sound would be critical. The Shure mics with the "Roswellite" things in them or whatever are supposed to be a lot less sensitive to abuse. Haven't seen much review of the Crowley & Tripp stuff or any review on the Shures though.

A good dynamic like the ones Mr. Hilarious suggested are common mention on brass & a lot more durable than ribbon mics. Shure SM7 is way under your budget and kind of like a 57 on steroids if you're into that sort of thing. Dynamics would help you if your room acoustics aren't great, but that also lends itself to suggesting room treatment. EV RE 20 might be another possibility, but that one might lend itself well to the nice soft stuff more so than lead. All high quality, good sounding mics regardless of being dynamics; they just happen to cost less than high quality, good sounding condensers and ribbons.
 
I had really good results recording brass instruments with an EV RE 20. The nice thing about this mic (which will run you between $400-$500 ) is that it is so good on so many things including a kick drum as well as voice.
 
Good stuff Guys. I was thinking about that Shure KSM313. I like the idea of durable. I am a klutz.
 
KSM313 - 30Hz - 15kHz - It's common for ribbons to have limited frequency response, but that's kind of limited even for a ribbon mic. Almost headset mic bad. For example the Fathead II is 30Hz - 18kHz. That extra high end is important for trumpet.

You can manage SPL with some distance from the mic. Not that you have much choice in distance in live applications. KSM141 would be better in terms of durability, but flirting on the edge of not enough SPL ability. If you intend on being less than 1 meter from the mic. SM137 too, but kind of bumpy on the curve in the high end for trumpet.

MKH8040 if you don't mind spending a couple bucks. STO-2's if you're on a budget, nothing more durable IMO. I bought mine used, and still just as good as the day I got them. Inspite of a few stand accidents and other unloading of car on unlevel ground in high winds things. Aside from the poke your eye out shape, it's difficult to find fault (beyond noise floor) that can't be corrected in post. Or by other means.
 
Or it could be that Cascade is not capable of accurately stating their specs--this is from their own website, first their claimed 30Hz-18kHz spec (-3dB):

http://www.cascademicrophones.com/cascade_FAT HEAD.html

Then the test report they had done by Herb at Cross-Spectrum (a really good guy, I use him too):

http://www.cascademicrophones.com/PDF/FAT_HEAD_Locked.pdf

Which clearly shows that the Fathead's -3dB response is 60Hz-8kHz, and that is consistent with my (albeit limited) experience with that microphone as well.

So . . . they are off by more than two octaves ;)


Shure doesn't state the threshold for their frequency range, but I would guess it is -6dB based on this chart:

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/public/documents/webcontent/us_pro_ksm313_specsheet.pdf

Moral of the story: ribbons don't have much response in the top octave, and fig-8 mics in general will have sharper bass rolloff than other patterns (outside the proximity zone, of course). The R121 is an exception for HF response.

Does that matter for brass? Depends on your preference, but it would help if manufacturers could manage accurate specs . . .

And somehow I note that Senn's frequency response curve for the MD441 on their website doesn't match their manual . . . sigh . . .
 
Shadow_7 said:
KSM313 - 30Hz - 15kHz - It's common for ribbons to have limited frequency response, but that's kind of limited even for a ribbon mic. Almost headset mic bad. For example the Fathead II is 30Hz - 18kHz. That extra high end is important for trumpet.

You can manage SPL with some distance from the mic. Not that you have much choice in distance in live applications. KSM141 would be better in terms of durability, but flirting on the edge of not enough SPL ability. If you intend on being less than 1 meter from the mic. SM137 too, but kind of bumpy on the curve in the high end for trumpet.

MKH8040 if you don't mind spending a couple bucks. STO-2's if you're on a budget, nothing more durable IMO. I bought mine used, and still just as good as the day I got them. Inspite of a few stand accidents and other unloading of car on unlevel ground in high winds things. Aside from the poke your eye out shape, it's difficult to find fault (beyond noise floor) that can't be corrected in post. Or by other means.
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The Avensons are definitely in my price range. So many choices. FYI.... this mic purchase is for the project studio. for live the SM57s or SM58s even if I have been singing and playing in the same gig even though I can only remember doing that twice. As rock and roll vocalist, lead guitar, and classical trumpet are rarely called for on the same job.
 
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samples always seem to tell the tale.

Avenson STO-2 plus a P/R Olds Soprano Bugle in Chrome

The closest thing to a trumpet I have. Not that this trombone player can make it sing much. 3x's through, first time the only edit is +8dB from it's recorded level, second time was basically a flat slope EQ to bump the high end 3dB higher than the low end, third time with TAP reverberation (audacity), since you rarely send a track out the door completely dry. This old Chrome bugle is pretty dark relative to most trumpets, hence the EQ. And I've played maybe one hour over the past six months (on trombone). So forgive my hackness.

For the rest of the chain, basically Avenson STO-2 on DIY shockmount. Mogami 15' quad core to a sound devices MM-1 preamp (gain at 18dB / 1st click above 0 / limiter off / low cut off). Livewire / Hosa (whatever that cheap chinese cable is) from the MM-1 to a Korg MR-1000 of the 1' variety (korg at 10:00 for gain / Low gain). To the laptop over USB. Converted from 24/192 to 24/44.1 with libsndfile in linux. And edited in audacity. Sox to concat the three versions. And audacity to further edit out dead time. With lame to output the MP3. Plus gftp to upload it to the webspace. All editing done in linux, on an old 32bit 2GHz laptop. Uptime 6 days and 18+ hours. Or something like that.
 
If the 57 fills the bill go for it and buy me 1400 bones worth of beer.

Seriously I can handle it.
 
Ok,

I finally pulled the trigger on a mic for this. I ended up with the ROYER R-101. It just arrived today. I just did some simple little things on trumpet just now. I am astounded by how it sounds. This is the first time I heard on a recording what I expected. I am going to post a little snippet in the next couple of days.

Thanks for the input.
 
jtomme65 said:
Ok,

I finally pulled the trigger on a mic for this. I ended up with the ROYER R-101. It just arrived today. I just did some simple little things on trumpet just now. I am astounded by how it sounds. This is the first time I heard on a recording what I expected. I am going to post a little snippet in the next couple of days.

Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...

WOW nice microphone .... wish I could afford one maybe after the holidays. Can't wait to hear the snippets.







:cool:
 
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