Which mic combination (oh no, not again... ;-)

[baekgaard]

[I _have_ in fact been searching the archives here and elsewhere and have asked somwhat around, but as I'm still in doubt, and would like to get some additional input, here goes -- seeing that this forum has lots of high quality postings ;-) ]:

Background>

I have in my mic locker the following mics: Shure SM-58, AKG D-3800, a cheapish handheld electret condenser PA mic, and a set of Behringer ECM8000. I am now adding a couple of LD condensers, and have at the moment here a Studio Projects B1 and a TB1 that I'm testing.

I will use these primarily to record vocals, acc guitar, percussion and occasionally some flute or sax. Music style is mainly "semi-acoustic" pop/light jazz.

My home studio is reasonably OK acoustically.
The record chain is an ST-Audio ADC&DAC2000 (with built-in pre-amps), though I sometimes first through the pre's of a Soundcraft Spirit Folio 12/2. In the other end, my monitors are Dynaudio BM6a's.

Questions>

I have checked out the TB1 and B1. The frequency responses are of course somewhat identical, although the B1 is nicely clean sounding as opposed to the TB1 that has the tube richness making e.g. a guitar sound warmer and more "alive". It also has a bit more bottom and a tad less "recorded" top, but due to the added harmonics, some "internal" top is added to the output, making it sound nicely "silky" (hm... difficult to describe).

Although different, both are useful on my voice, guitar and percussion, but similar enough that I could probably still get away with doing a stereo recording L/R with the 2 mics.

I was very much in doubt whether I should have gotten the C1 instead of the TB1, and can still return one of the mics for a swap. So now, I think my options are as follows:

1) C1 and B1 (a bit cheaper)
2) TB1 and B1 (what I have now)
3) C1 and 2*B1 (just a bit more expensive)
4) TB1 and B1 plus add also an MXL V67G
5) TB1 and C1 (most pricy option)

For those of you familiar with the sounds of those mics, I would like to hear your recommendation and what you would do if you were me ;-)

Are the C1 and the MXL V67G close enough in their sound so that it wouldn't matter a lot whether I get one or the other? If so, I could keep what I have now, and eventually add the MXL V67G later.

How different is the C1 from the B1 and especially from the TB1? Would I have a better sonic palette with the B1 and a C1 instead of the TB1?

Or can I (given my other equipment) just as well use the EQ a bit? And maybe save the money, and try to get a better pre-amp later?

Your input appreciated,


-- Per.

 

[billisa]

I only have a pair of B1's that I love, but before you listed the options, my thought was C1/TB1. The thought was "get the best you can afford". People seem to love the C1. But if you like the way the B1 sounds on your voice, keep it. My sense is, the B1 has a tendency to let things sound as close as they really are. Or it gives the illusion of doing this. Maybe a pair of B1's, along with a TB1? Sorry for adding another alternative!

 

[DJL]

baekgaard,

Vocal... Get the mic's that sound best with your voice and projects.

Acoustic guitar... Marshall MXL603S.

Sax... Sennheiser MD421.

Drums
Kick... Sennheiser MD421.
Snare... Beyer M201.
Overheads... AKG C451's

 

[baekgaard]

DJL wrote:

> Vocal... Get the mic's that sound best with your voice and projects.

Yep... what I should have added is that I don't really have the option for auditioning all of them (i.e. the C1) here at home, so I do, to some extent, have to rely on the advice of other people.

Specifically the difference between the C1 and the TB1 is interesting to hear about, and between the C1 and MXL V67G... whatever can shed light on my decision -- given the option above (or new ones) ;-)

Thanks for your input so far,


-- Per.

 

[baekgaard]

DJL wrote:

> Vocal... Get the mic's that sound best with your voice and projects.

Yep... what I should have added is that I don't really have the option for auditioning all of them (i.e. the C1) here at home, so I do, to some extent, have to rely on the advice of other people.

Specifically the difference between the C1 and the TB1 is interesting to hear about, and between the C1 and MXL V67G... whatever can shed light on my decision -- given the option above (or new ones) ;-)

Thanks for your input so far,


-- Per.

 

[DJL]

Well baekgaard, most of the time I perfer the Shure KSM44 over all the Studio Projects and Marshall LDC or tube mic's.

 

[Rev E]

Sorry to throw another curveball, but in the rhealm of the TB1 is the Marshall/MXL V69. It's a tube mic with a nice solid mid range and a little richness on the top. It makes an excellent acoustic mic and a fabulous vocal mic, especially on male vocals.

V67 v. C1
As to your question, I have both the V67 and the C1 and I find them to be very different mics. The midrange scoop on my C1 is more prominent than the scoop (if there is any) on the V67. To my ears, the V67 has a bit more mid body, but the C1 has a more prominent low-end and high end. Thus, the V67 sounds a bit darker than the C1 in my studio. Compared to the V67, the C1 sounds more "chesty," which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the source.

Go to Dot's page, www.thelisteningsessions.com to hear some examples of these mics in action.

V69--a great vocal and allpurpose mic
I can recommend the V69, because I have experience that this is a great mic for both of your main purposes. If you will record vocals and acoustic at the same time, then I would consider either the MXL 603 or the Octava MC 012 (a.k.a. MK 012). Either the 603 or the Octava mic would work also as a drum overhead if you ever needed that later.

C1
I can't recommend the C1 outright for you, because it is not good on all voices, particularly some male voices (few mics are, but there are better all around choices). I have used it to great success with female vocals and some male voices, but not all and not mine. If you were considering the C1 it would be best that you test it out beforehand or buy from a place that permits you to return it if it doesn't work out.

 

[chessrock]

I apologize if I'm mistaken, but it didn't look to me like you had any mention of an actual "pair" of mics anywhere in your options. Whatever you wind up going with . . . I just think it would be a good idea to have a pair of something for stereo mic'ing if/when you might need it.

 

[baekgaard]

Hm...

Good input, thanks for your information.

Rev E: Thanks for pointing at the V69, though it may not make it any easier... Have you been able to test it/hear it agains the TB1 -- would be interesting to know how they compare? My guess is that the top ends might be somewhat similar with the added "toob" richness, but maybe with the TB1 having slightly more top, but then with a less pronounced/less solid midrange.

Also, how do the V67 and the V69 compare? Is it the same capsule, just one with a "toob" sound and the other not?

Concerning your "reservation" on the C1 working not so well on some voices, does that also apply to the V67, in your opinion? Or is it so that _if_ the V67 and V69 are somewhat similar, then would the V67 be a "safer bet" for "blind buying"?

Chessrock: I have a pair of ECM8000's for stereo recordings. In a pinch, I could probably also get away with using the B1 and the TB1 together... they are not that different, though one is definitely warmer than the other.


One observation on the SP mics, based on input here and my own limited B-series observations/listening tests: It seems that the B-series will do quite well on many sources. The C-series may do even better on some voices, but on others it will probably do worse.

So based on e.g. what Rev E says, since I'm not able to test it without buying it, I may keep what I have (B1 and TB1), and possibly try to add something different later, which could be a MXL V67G, KSM44 or a pair of 603's.


Just keep your comments flowing! Seems like it may help me decide in the end in any case


-- Per.

 

[Rev E]

Re: Hm...

...Rev E: Thanks for pointing at the V69, though it may not make it any easier... Have you been able to test it/hear it agains the TB1 -- would be interesting to know how they compare?

Baekgaard, I've never used the TB1. I have heard good things about it from those who I trust but that's just hearsay. So, I cannot compare the V69 to the TB1.

Also, how do the V67 and the V69 compare? Is it the same capsule, just one with a "toob" sound and the other not?

I am not a real technical engineer as far as design goes, so I won't talk about what I don't know. But, the two mics do NOT sound like the same capsule. They are very different. Also, my personal opinion of the V69 is that the tube sound is not an "over-the-top-in-your-face" tube sound. It is a fairly reserved mic as far as the tube effect. The place where the tube really shows is in the well formed mid-range... something we tend not to get with todays ultra sheen condensers. I really like this mic. Perhaps, you can ask Brent Casey about this. He used to work for MXL before moving to Studio Projects. He knows all the technical details.

Concerning your "reservation" on the C1 working not so well on some voices, does that also apply to the V67, in your opinion? Or is it so that _if_ the V67 and V69 are somewhat similar, then would the V67 be a "safer bet" for "blind buying"?

No, my reservation does not apply to the V67. It's kinda funny, because I think the C1 is a better mic than the V67. In fact the sound of the C1, when it works (which is most often for my uses of it) it sounds great! Among the three, the V69 is my winner for safe bet all-around mic. Between the V67 and C1, IMO the V67 is the safer bet... but I don't think it is as good of a mic. Perhaps a better comparison would be the B1 and V67, between these two I would probably go with the B1, though I like the 67 sometimes.

As far as the KSM44 I don't know from personal experience. I have heard the KSM series described as a more neutral version of the Audio Technica 4050 CM5, a mic that I have a lot of experience with. Given that description I would bet that the KSM would do you well as a good all-around mic. So you may be onto something

 

[acorec]

For a vocal mic that works on most very well, get the Neumann TLM103 used or new.
You can thank me later.

 

[David Artis]

For a vocal mic that works on most very well, get the Neumann TLM103 used or new.
You can thank me later.

I own a C1, TLM103 and quite a few other high and low end mics.

The TLM103 is a great mic but when doing sessions most artist choose the C1 over the TLM103. I do mostly Pop/Alternative with some country. Both male and female voices.

Again it depends on the artists.

 

[acorec]

I own a C1, TLM103 and quite a few other high and low end mics.

The TLM103 is a great mic but when doing sessions most artist choose the C1 over the TLM103. I do mostly Pop/Alternative with some country. Both male and female voices.

Again it depends on the artists.

Yup, it also depends on a huge number of other factors. The room, the pre, the singer etc. I have the opposite happen all the time. People almost always choose the TLM103 over everything else I have. The TLM has very high gain and loves a "dark" pre-amp. But, YMMV.

 

[baekgaard]

Had a chance to compare recordings done with V67 and V69 (thelisteningsessions.com). Rev E, you're right, these are very different mics! The V67 didn't sound as I remembered it; it is probably closer to the B1 than the C1 soundwise.

However difficult that may be, as it depends on a lot of other factors also, I dare another comparison: when I liken how the TB1 feels here and the V69 recording above, then it seems to me that the V69 is driven harder, with more tube sound, than the TB1 has. The TB1 is a bit more subtle than the V69.


On the TLM-103, I'm sure it is a great mic... just a tad out of my price range. Of the SP mics, I have read others say that the TB1 might be the one that sounds closest to it. YMMV, of course, but I guess the TB1 is the SP that has the most solid midrange, so it may be true?


Anyway, I haven't really decided yet. I guess that I will have to make some more tests, and see what it shows.

Maybe my main worry really is whether the B1 and TB1 will sound too much alike, so that it isn't worth having the TB1 in addition to the B1.

Is it so that I should rather get a tube pre to "warm up" the signal instead?


-- Per.

 

[Henri Devill]

Is it so that I should rather get a tube pre to "warm up" the signal instead?


-- Per.

Not unless you spend $..Get something relitively clean and solidstate...Alot of the toob pres only rob you of harmonic content.Also they cloud up the sound and make it sound like you've got a pillow over your tracks..not warm but dull..This is my opinon..whatever you decide good luck and have fun


Don

 

[Rev E]

...Get something relitively clean and solidstate...Alot of the toob pres only rob you of harmonic content.Also they cloud up the sound and make it sound like you've got a pillow over your tracks..not warm but dull..This

I agree with Don on this one. Much of the cheaper tube stuff just doesn't cut it. The SP VTB-1 is about the only exception to this rule. Although, I think the best part of that pre is the solid state part. Something like one or two VTB-1s or a DMP3 is what I would recommend.

 

[baekgaard]

Just for the record...

... after some further tests and consideration, I am now sending back the TB1 to replace it with a C1. The TB1 is nice, and has a more solid midrange than the B1, a bit more bottom and a more smooth topend... but still, it is somewhat close to the B1 in sound, and I think the C1 will complement the B1 better in the end.

The difference will be used for either another B1 (to get a stereo pair) or in part towards a better pre-amp, like the Joemeek VC3Q or the Studio Projects VTB-1, both of which I think are reasonably clear, but still can be brought to add some "warmth" by using the "toob" or the compressor.

Any opinions towards both are of course welcome.

I have, BTW, also added a pair of Oktava MK012s, so my mic collection is probably OK for now.


-- Per.

 

[billisa]

Re: Just for the record...

... after some further tests and consideration, I am now sending back the TB1 to replace it with a C1. The TB1 is nice, and has a more solid midrange than the B1, a bit more bottom and a more smooth topend... but still, it is somewhat close to the B1 in sound, and I think the C1 will complement the B1 better in the end.

The difference will be used for either another B1 (to get a stereo pair) or in part towards a better pre-amp, like the Joemeek VC3Q or the Studio Projects VTB-1, both of which I think are reasonably clear, but still can be brought to add some "warmth" by using the "toob" or the compressor.

Any opinions towards both are of course welcome.-- Per.

I have 2 B1's. I'm using 2 VTB1 preamps. They are super quiet, even with a lot of gain. Very nice.