Which cheap deal is better?

Chris F · May 12, 2001

This debate is very useful and very valid, and it's nice to see that the dialog between Harvey and Ed has remained quite civil. I have also had my doubts about the worth of advice coming from folks you have never met on the net. On the other hand, as a professional jazz pianist, bassist and jazz theory instructor who frequents another forum dedicated to bass (whose format is identical to this one), I have been on the side of the issue where I am the "Pro" who is asked for my recommendations about gear, music theory, approaches to improvisation, etc....and I know that when I or the other pros on the site give advice, we try to be honest and helpful at the same time while keeping in mind that the folks we are talking to are usually going to be playing in situations that are somewhat "below" our own personal standards at this point in our lives - but to the folks acting on our recommendations, they are often taking their first tentative steps into the arena, and our advice represents a significant step UP to them.
We understand that, and that's why we like to help. Because all of us have other areas in our lives in which we are the NEWBIES, and we hope that by helping out other newbies who wish to draw on our experience and expertise, the good karma gets spread around - so that when it comes our turn to seek advice on something about which we know little, there might be someone who can relate to us the way that we related to the newbies in our field.

Hmmm, that was somewhat convoluted, hope it made at least a little sense...

Having said all of that, I value the opinions of the pros on this forum highly. When I see a strong recommendation from one person, it sends me out on a quest for more information to back it up. Being primarily a musician with limited financial resources, I will almost always be looking for the best bargains available. If I had $2000 to spend, I sure as hell wouldn't spend it on mics - I'd put it away towards that $14,000 Double Bass that I want someday. So the "best cheap _________" question, while probably annoying as hell to some of you guys, is also very real and important to some of us.

Finally, I bought a pair of MXL 603s mics based on the recommendations here on this forum (plus a bunch of backup research), and I feel compelled to say that, in my professional opinion as a musician with some pretty good ears, and in my VERY HUMBLE opinion as a complete home recording newbie.....dude, they ROCK!!!!!!! ....uh, sorry, they sound great to me, and I can see myself using them gladly for many years to come. This site is wonderful, and keep up the good work everybody.

Peace,

C. Fitzgerald

Gidge · May 12, 2001

Ed,

Ive heard good stuff made with sub $200 mics here (not necessarily Pro quality, but who are we kidding here...HOME RECORDING.com)......Im not knocking your knowledge here...I respect you most , of all the pros here, because youve stuck it out with us and put up with our insane misuse of eqipment....and remember, some pros will frown at YOUR use of an Art Pre, but it gets the results you want and isnt that whats really important?....

"So the "best cheap _________" question, while probably annoying as hell to some of you guys, is also very real and important to some of us. "...ChrisF

Chris you said a mouthful...thanks....

sonusman · May 12, 2001

Harvey, thank you for all the clarification. I certainly do appreciate the time you take to post on this BBS. Please do not feel that I am attacking your personally. I tend to run on these subjects in a more general sense, rather then a specific persons words. I will usually note who I am talking about if I am talking about somebody in particular. But again, you offer very good, useful information to this site and I am glad that you do so.

Tom, I continue to be impressed with your easy going nature. I am also glad that you have stuck around this long. By the way, did you actually buy a Behringer unit? If so, what did you think?

Gidge, I think that you oversimplify what MANY here are looking for in their recording experience. Pay more attention to what most are claiming to want to accomplish in their recordings, and my replies will actually start to make more practical sense. Just to whine a bit here, but I am sick and tired of reading "I want professional results, but don't want to spend more then (insert way to low of a dollar figure here....), what should I get?" threads, answer them with realistic advice, then get bombarded with idiotic responses from people who have never used anything better then what they have, have no examples of their work that is even close to the results that are asked for, and yet still insist that I am full of shit when I advice to spend a bit more and get products that are more in line with what is used to get the results they seek. I am dead on in my recommendations being appropriate to what is asked for more then I go overboard in the quality department, and have recieved far too many emails in the nature of "I bit the bullet and spent a bit more for what you advised and am extremely happy that I did!". Yup, that is patting myself on the back, but surely you and a few others here seem to be busting my chops a lot lately about me "over advising" per se on just what a good sound is going to cost.

I listen to all those same mp3's you do in the clinic. Including mine, most are not "all that", and the ones that are, you wind up finding out that very expensive gear was used to record it.

So argue on the premise that this is "home recording" all you want, and that people are just looking for "decent sound" (even though their posts hardly EVER state it that way). I DO advise some cheap gear here and there, but it is usually still a bit more then what others advise. In two particular cases, I advise a piece of gear where both started out selling for over twice what they currently do, and in both cases, this is gear that you will find in professional studios. As far as the ART is concerned, well, that has always been the one cheapy piece of gear that I go for.

Have I tried every low priced product on the market to know if it is any good or not? No. But I do listen to peoples work and am pretty good at hearing things in ways that you probably don't have the ability to hear right now, mainly from your lack of experience with high end gear, and probably far less time "behind the desk" in the last year then I have had in the last 3 months! This experience allows me to hear little things that you may not notice, and thus, I can more easily draw conclusions from certain gear and it's potential use. I mix PROFESSIONALLY, and this requires that I hear the difference between bad tracking, bad processing, bad performance, etc....and good of the same. Record a great sounding track sometime, then mess it up with ill applied eq in a mix sometime, I will probably be able to just listen and tell you that it was a good sounding track will ill applied eq because I can hear the difference.

In conclusion to all that BS above

)) I don't need to have as much first hand experience with every piece of gear to hear stuff that used it and access most of it's potential use. This is why I suggest that people at least justify their recommendations on gear with some audio for all to hear. That is fair and prudent. I could rave all day long about how a Alesis Quadraverb is a KILLER sounding reverb, but I just don't have the tracks to back that claim up, although I DO have a track where the reverb worked out fairly well. In all fairness, I would have to say that I tried EVERY OTHER REVERB I HAD FIRST before I used it. You get what I am saying? Yes, it worked out well THAT ONE TIME.

I am not in the business of recommending based upon exceptions. If I recommend a AT 4033 as a great low end mic to buy, it is based upon hearing a lot of it's use, NOT the occasional good sounding track.

Anyway, this is all somewhat pointless, and this is the type of discussion that mostly keeps me out of this forum. The big bad world of microphone recommendations becomes very tedious in a hurry. Everybody wants something cheap that will be great as an "overall use" mic. Great! So do I!!! My experience suggests that if you pay a little more for a large diaphram condensor, you will get a bit more "overall use" out of it that actually sounds good, to a point. But the fact that there are so many damn differing opinions about mics suggest that their truely is no right answer here eh? The catch 22. A guy is on a budget and can only afford one mic, yet there IS no one mic that is going to work the best, because that concept is too easy to dispute. BUT, I hope that people in the future can at least start offering up something to listen to. Too many seem to just buy without hearing, and hearing is believing. And if you are making an important decision about a mic (one of the most important decisions you can make in gear purchases) you should do so based upon as many examples that you can hear of it's use. Following written word recommendations obviously has the potential of the blind leading the blind (or possibly the deaf leading the deaf?

)

Regards

Ed

Lester · May 12, 2001

Nady Cheapos

I've got a couple of cheapo Nady large-diaphragm condensers that I have been using as drum overheads... I am pretty pleased with the sound.

Gidge · May 12, 2001

Ed ,

you lond winded sumbitch.....believe me I do pay attention to what the posts say....and if you would have posted these exact comments in another thread asking for professional results from these mics, I would have stood and applauded....

"I know they wouldn't be great, but could they be decent? " was the original question in this post... I know from a few people posting (Emeric included)that these mics are good for overheads....for what hes looking to spend, they may be his best choice......

As far as patting yourself on the back for convincing them to spend a little more to get better results, I stand and applaud again...But what about the guy who says he can spend $200 and can probably only affor $150....so I bust your chops, but I also give you props cause you know your shit, big boy....

Youve probably spent more time behind the desk in one week than Ive spent all year...I spend all my time slamming you

jet-rocker · May 12, 2001

Hey Ed, I'll ask again.

How are the ghost pres?

-Jett Rocker

Harvey Gerst · May 13, 2001

Your post got me thinking about some stuff

sonusman said:
Harvey!

I have sent emails to you asking that you don't quit posting here. I had the upmost sincerity when I sent them, AND I STILL DO.

I expressed to you that I am open to knowledgable debate on any subject, and I still mean that. I will never claim to have a "know all" view on audio, simply for the fact that other competent engineers continually show me very viable options to the way I am used to working in.

I would be a FOOL to NOT count you as one of them.

Please regard my above posts as being more of a sobering angle to the whole subjective idea of microphone selection, rather than a direct challenge to your very informative information that you provide.

As Shailat stated, intelligent discussion on a topic helps a "less knowledable" reader ascertain what might be a better decision for them.

My read on most microphone posts is that most are looking for the cheapest deal in town that will provide the best results. I have my own professional experiences with this, you have yours. I see no problem with stating (even if somewhat strongly) a difference of opinion on a good choice.

I have defended my choice not only with well worded debate, but with audio examples of my work. I expect nothing less of another professional engineer who has a strong opinion on a microphone recommendation. What other example is valid in audio than a audio example? How many audio examples are available to the average John Doe on the internet? How many nationally released products are available for review that use mics that others recommend? In the $1000-$4000 range, MANY. In the sub $200 range, none that I know of yet. But when I recommend a Audio Technica 4033, I do so with not only the experience of having great results with it, but with knowing that national releases have have used it too. THAT is a valid testamant, as many are trying to achieve similar results in their home recording environment. If a 50% increase in investment will yield even 80% of top notch results, I figure that to be a better investment for one on a limited budget than a unproven mic. Would you find this to be a flawed assessment? I would surely value your opinion on that. I do mean that.

I have little time and money for judgement on good purchases that are not going to yield professional results. In light of this, I paid the extra price in the beginning of my studio owning career to hire a consultant to advice on solid purchases. At that time, I didn't have a website available to me with many knowlegable professional engineers to gather a consesus from, and to hear examples of their work. I guess that I am lucky that the consultant I choose had enough experience and integraty to sometimes recommend even products that he had no direct access to, and would even advise the best place to purchase the product that would best serve my parameters in price vs. quality. These parameters may be a bit higher then the average person on this BBS, but my experience in almost 2 years of contributing to this site suggests that most are looking for products that are the "gem in the lot". If that is a Marshall microphone, then my recommendations stand corrected! BUT, everyone reading ANY recommendation is certainly entitled to a fair written debate from different oppinions, AS WELL AS audio examples of these opinions. I find this way of stating opinions to be the most informative and prudent to the unknowing.

I feel these are valid and pertinent points to consider when one is on a budget and need an "multi purpose" large diaphram condensor mic.

My main point here is that if more audio examples of these "reviews" were available for all to hear, the recommendations would carry more weight. It is human nature to doubt what one does not know, and I do not know a lot of these sub $200 mics that are freely recommended on BBS's. From what I have heard in posted mp3's by people using these mics, and the few experiences I have had with some of them, I am very dubious of their quality, regardless of who recommends them.

I ask that you DON'T stop posting about other alternatives to the rather inflated large diaphram condensor mic category. But I DO ask that you can at least back any claims you make about these mics with audio examples of their use. That is fair to everyone reading differing views.

With the upmost respect,

Ed

Unfortunately, I don't have the time to do that. I'm hoping that enough people here read the "How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?" thread, which will (hopefully) help everybody make more intelligent, informed choices. As far as how I record, you can go to my studio page, click on the links to the various groups we've recorded, and hear samples of what I do as far as recording. As to how I record, I have submitted stuff for each of the rec.audio.pro compilation discs, with detailed explanations of mic choices and placements.

I share Ed's concerns that this will otherwise become an "I own one and it rocks, dude" kind of forum. Unless you really understand mic patterns, mic design, and general mic theory, the best you can hope to say is "I used it and liked it", but unless you understand why it may not work for others, you really shouldn't be posting opinions, or expect to be taken seriously. A lot of pros fall into that trap as well. It's new, so they love it.

Hopefully, by the time my mic "mini-course" is over, a lot of people here will have a lot better understanding of what to expect from a mic (and what not to expect). Judging from the fact that it seems to be the most viewed thread in the mic forum, I think a lot of people here are looking for a real understanding of how mics works. By pointing out the advantages AND disadvantages of each design, I hope people here will be able to make their own decisions about purchases, based on a better understanding of the trade-offs involved.

Any mic recommendation I make are based on good general performance characteristics of the mics I test, not my own personal opinion of the mic. I listen to the mic as does my son, and we copare notes afterwards. We judge all mics against other mics we already know are proven performers. But testing mics is not our primary business - operating a recording studio is. I got into low-end mic testing because I was curious to see if there really were any "good mics under $200" around. Surprisingly, I did find a few.

Should you trust my evaluation? That's up to you. Should you trust the guys at a major mic company when they tested these mics and got the same results I did? That's up to you, too. Should you trust the recording engineers on rec.audio.pro who also bought these mics and got similar results? Up to you.

I'm not trying to push any mics here, but if you want my opinions as to whether good mics exist for under $200, you've already got them. Right now, I think the "mini-course" in mic design and placement is more important than a particular mic choice, since it will help everybody get better sound with the mics they already own. It's an area I really feel very comfortable in, since it doesn't involve any opinion - just basic physics and mic theory 101.

I really don't wanna get involved in a "whose opinion should you believe?" contest. Everybody here knows which low end mics I recommend, and why - that's enough for me. See y'all back on the design thread.

Dolemite · May 14, 2001

sonusman said:
I have defended my choice not only with well worded debate, but with audio examples of my work. I expect nothing less of another professional engineer who has a strong opinion on a microphone recommendation. What other example is valid in audio than a audio example? How many audio examples are available to the average John Doe on the internet? How many nationally released products are available for review that use mics that others recommend? In the $1000-$4000 range, MANY. In the sub $200 range, none that I know of yet. But when I recommend a Audio Technica 4033, I do so with not only the experience of having great results with it, but with knowing that national releases have have used it too.

Hey Ed,

Just out of pure curiousity, could you tell us what well-known stuff was done with a AT4033? Also, I must have missed them, but if its not too much trouble, could you link up some "audio examples" of something you've tracked on it? BTW, I see these things go for around $200 on ebay all the time.

Chris F · May 15, 2001

Dolemite said:
Hey Ed,

Just out of pure curiousity, could you tell us what well-known stuff was done with a AT4033? Also, I must have missed them, but if its not too much trouble, could you link up some "audio examples" of something you've tracked on it? BTW, I see these things go for around $200 on ebay all the time.

The AT4033? Awww, sh*t......what the hell does that rat soup eatin' mutha****er want with me?

Fela · May 15, 2001

Marshall V67s as Overheads for Drums

I use a pair. They sound ok on the cymbals -the drums could sound better though.

They sounded better after I figured out how to hit the polarity-reverse switch

They were 179 at MARS music. Wanted an AT4033 really bad but needed two mikes. I could have gotten a couple of the small diaphram marshall condensors cheaper. Maybe should have. The 67's sound a hell of a lot better than the sm57s and sm58s for overheads though. Just having a pair of matching condensor mikes is a big big improvement for me.

They are running through a crummy behringer two channel tube/noise pre.

I did try the AT4033 in the store and the difference was noticible.

They won't be my last mikes. They wont be my best mikes. They are my first condensor mikes though and I lurv em for just that reason

Dolemite · May 15, 2001

LOL, Chris!

That motha****a think I'm dead, but he don't know. I'm a human tornado!

CyanJaguar · May 15, 2001

hi dolemite,

I read in an interview that Alan parsons favors the At4033 mic, even over the u87.

Alan parson is regarded as one of the very best.

MASTON · May 20, 2001

Seriousturtle.
You're one of the few people to praise the AKG C-1000 which is good 'cos I have one, but I can't get a decent male vocal (my voice is deep and full, kind of Lou Reedish) out of it. Female vox sounds great. I'm using an ART Pre-amp, Soundblaster and Cakewalk. Only got Cakewalk EQ and compression plug-ins.

SO how do I get a good vocal, what do I have to do to the EQ, and the compression. (female vox sounds great with absolutely no EQ or compression) Can you please use simple non-techie language, I don't know what an XY incident or a double is.

cheers
Maston

Which cheap deal is better?

Chris F

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Gidge

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Gidge

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Harvey Gerst

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Dolemite

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