Which cheap deal is better?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JFogarty
  • Start date Start date
hey...

Who has 4 603's for $300 with cables, anyway? That seems like a mighty friendly deal that I'd like to check in to.
Thanks,
Paul
 
603s

Paul,
8th street. 4 603s with cords 299.00. I saw it Sunday on their site. Thinking of trying them for acoustic stuff.
dtb
 
seriousturtle said:
fogarty, where have you heard that the c1000s is a bad mic? have you heard it? have you recorded with it with it's double in a xy coincident? it's not a bad mic at all. but if you're using it with no compression or a decent eq, then it probably won't be that good sounding. i've only heard them with the eq and compression and they sounded great. kabudokan, im interested in hearing who thinks that the v67 is a great mic. how long have they had that mic? what do they use it for? i might be basing my remarks on old information. maybe marshal is making good microphones now, even though their first efforts were ridiculed
Well, I listened to the AKG C1000s for several weeks and they have a very ragged top end response that bothers me, and yes, I tried them as an X/Y pair, but the noise level was too high for the harp I tried to record with them. As far as the V67 and the 603Ss go, I've had mine for about 4 months now, and they've worked very well in a wide variety of situations for me. Both have a very smooth top end and require no eq when placed right.

I'm not a fan of the Marshall MXL-2001, and have said so, many times before, both here and in other forums.

The ragged edgy top end on the C1000 required a lot of eq to tame it, and then it was too dull after getting rid of the high end peaks. Similar to the C3000 (which I only found usable a couple of times in 2 years of owning it), the C1000 high end peaks become tiring after a while, and only compliment a few instruments. Overheads are not one of the uses I found for the C1000s - way too brittle and edgy sounding, for me anyway.

As far as the Marshall large capsules, they are made by the same Chinese company that makes the capsules for the Rode NT-1, which you seem to like. (I found the Rode to be inconsistant from unit to unit.)

I don't buy mics based on reviews (even tho I might try them based on the recommendation of someone I trust). I buy or borrow the mic, take it into the studio and compare it to many other mics I own to see if it will be useful or a different flavor from what I already have.

My background as a recording engineer from Los Angeles also gives me a good mental database of the older Neumann and AKG "super mics" as a basis for comparison. One of Neumann's star endorsees, the legendary producer/engineer Al Schmitt, is going to try the Marshall V67s and 603s, and I'll post his opinion of them, good or bad, when I get it. He was already recommending them, based on my opinion only, which I felt shouldn't be his only criteria, so I asked Marshall to send him the mics to try out. We'll know what he thinks in a week or two.
 
JFogarty, all the information you need is contained in my first post...the MXL-1000's in that Fox mic package are identicle in sound if you take the ball off to the MXL603's, and I know of at least two people here that use them for drum overheads and like them....

seriousturtle, it seems from your first post that you think we are recommending a drum mic package to him and we arent...its just a mic package deal that would happen to be CHEAP and would happen to work for him.....then you recommend mics that would cost 2 to 3 times more...thats more offensive to me than recommending mics for a particular application that people whos ears I trust have said it works fine...this is not a flame, and Im not trying to get this thread heated again...but I had to let it off my chest....

Peace,

GIDGE
 
Recomending expensive stuff when decent cheap stuff is available is the quickest way to piss gidge off ;)
 
Almost 100% true J....depends on what the poster wants...If they want to spend $500-$1000 on a mic and get great results, imight take a stab in the dark, but I wont recommend a $300 mic because thats what I can afford...that would be offensive...I leave those posts to the "Big Boys"

To quote your initial post "I know they wont be great, but could they be decent?"...well I know people that could afford more, yet still use them....of course it offends me, as it should offend you....Now if the person asks for a product in a price change that just cant be done, of course we should tell them it cant, and what they can expect to spend.....

This mini rant is officially over (I think)....
 
I know exactly what you mean. I've posted before asking for a cheap mic that will get decent results, and people recommend I buy 5 mics that all cost 350 each. That doesn't seem cheap too me. I don't have $1750 to spend on mics....
 
$1750 USED to be pretty cheap for mics. I still suspect it is....:)

I think my tendancy towards offering up more expensive alternative stems from the fact that a microphones are the first set of 'ears' in the recording chain. Truely, it pays to buy quality in mics, because you will keep that mic for years to come and get professional, predictable results with it.

You can follow other trains of thought, but I can almost assure you that you will be buying yet again new mics down the road if you are just looking to get by on a budget for now, and you will probably find little use for the cheaper mic. You would be surprised at how quickly this happens! Thus, why I always say, "buy cheap, buy twice".

I would NEVER give up my AT 4033's, even if I have a closet full of "higher end" mics. I consider my 4033's to be in the professional range of picking up sound in a serious studio environment, and for several years now they have performed very well, as many other engineers who use them would agree with. They are versatile, good sounding, and rugged. I paid A LOT more for used ones 4 years ago then you can buy them new for now. Go figure. But, a lot of hit songs have used 4033's on various parts, and that is a nice testament to the quality of the mic. Same with a SM-57. These are my two staples in the studio, and while I lust others, these have done very well for me for years now.

This trends towards the $200 specials on mics is disturbing. If I was hearing a lot of good tracks coming from them, that would be another thing. But I am not.

Just my .2 cents again. Keep the change.

Ed
 
Ed, but what if all the person is looking for is a "cheap mic" that gives "decent" results?....of course, this is where the word decent becomes purely subjective.....

Repeat after me Ed...HOMERECORDING.com....

BTW, Ed...I need to do some killer vocals ...let me check my pockets....54 dollars....67..no 68 cents....2 lottery tickets...a used condom....should i get a new mic or a better tube mic stand?.....
 
Ha! "Plain" tube mic stands are yesterday's news...

...the way to go NOW are the "zero-impedance, static-free" rubber 'feet' to put on the tube mic stand!!

Bruce
 
sonusman said:
$1750 USED to be pretty cheap for mics. I still suspect it is....:)

I think my tendancy towards offering up more expensive alternative stems from the fact that a microphones are the first set of 'ears' in the recording chain. Truely, it pays to buy quality in mics, because you will keep that mic for years to come and get professional, predictable results with it.

This trends towards the $200 specials on mics is disturbing. If I was hearing a lot of good tracks coming from them, that would be another thing. But I am not.

Just my .2 cents again. Keep the change.

Ed


I would, in a heart beat, spend 1750 on mics, if I had the money. I don't have that kinda money to spend on anything, the poo' college student that I am... :( If I could convert some of this expensive ass tuition in som mics, and maybe a ghost, and some good a/d d/a converters, that would rock. By cheap, buy twice. Yes, that is the plan. I need something now, but I don't have the financial wherewithall to be buying the kind of mics I want to end up with. So I'll buy the cheapest ones possible. And if some like Harvey Gerst who seems to know his shit, recommends them, well then hell, that just seems to seal the deal. I wouldn't have any skills at all to place good mics well anyway.
 
I like how nobody really gets the point here.

Admit that most of you WANT to believe that there is a cheap solution and will stand stubborn behind anyting that supports that.

I don't post in the mic forum much because of this, but I have to show up and put on the game face from time to time just so you all have something to argue with me about.

In a nutshell:

"I need a mic for cheap that sound great"

answer 1 "Buy this cheap such and such, it is awesome"

answer 2 "Yeah, I have a cheap such and such and it is awesome"

answer 3 "The cheap such and such is just as good as anything I have heard" (have heard little, but THAT don't stop them from using the marketing type wording in the recommendation)

answer 4 "For a few more buck, you can have something that will last you a life time. I wouldn't recommend unproven unless you know what you are looking for and can test it before buying"

reply 1 to answer 4 "That's BS!!!"

answer 2 "Yeah, you don't have to pay more to get the same"

answer 3 "Joe Blow said it was good and he writes abou this stuff more then I do. He MUST be right and you are wrong"

answer 4 "Yeah, Joe Blow gave it a glowing review in magazine X. You are full of BS"

etc.....

Post found later in some other forum:

"I need help. I recorded a whateveryouwanttoinserthere with my X brand mic and it sounded really good until I compared my recording to a professional recording. What do I do?"

answer 1 "Compress it with X brand compressor"

answer 2 "Eq it a lot"

answer 3 "Give it some reverb"

answer 4 "Use the Antares mic modeler on it to make it sound like Y brand mic"

answer 5 "You need gizmowidgetgadget by Cheapbrandstuff if you want THAT sound"

answer 6 "I told you so....." (posted by answer 4 to question 1.

:)

I use a $450 mic/preamp combo for vocals and $200 mic/preamp combo for most instruments (same preamp, so the total cost is $550 for two mics and a preamp) that continually produces results that makes people ask a lot of questions about how I got the sounds, and many statements about how they wished they could get that sound. As happy as I may be with it, it is still short alot of times of the big boy results.

Without being rude, "condescending" (as some have put it), or challenging about results other "pros" get (usually none of which you have heard), what makes my advice on this subject so wrong?

Here is a quicky review I am going to do on a AKG C1000S, a $200 small diaphram condensor:

I used the C1000 on a recent recording session with a female vocalist recently, as well as the main drum overhead. Here was the "results".

As a drum overhead, very detailed. The sound was smooth and articulate. It didn't pick up the toms quite as well as a pair of Nuemann U87's do (a $2400 mic!) but the tom sound was reasonable, and the top end was just as good.

On the vocalist, the mic had maybe a bit more proximity effect then I would have liked, because she is a rock singer and tended to move around a bit while performing the part. Other then that, the sound produced when she was in the "sweet spot" was very well balanced, warm, and very clear. You could hear breath intakes, and when she hit the mic hard, there was no audible distortion from the diaphram.




I could go on and on here. Let me ask you though, what have you "heard" of my results?

What makes what I have to say about this mic better or worse then what someone else reviewed about it?




Ahhhhhhhhhh...the mic forum. Land of a lot of opinions with few results to back them.

That is the blind leading the blind at it's finest....;)

Ed
 
Sonusman is the sonus man

Well see, 400 as compared to 150 is not that bad a jump. Thats one I could possibly make. Have you heard the marshall's? I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to get all the input I can on this. Thanks for posting though. I know I contribute to it, but the mic forum is becoming one big harvey site. Which isn't anything against harvey, but I think its bad to have a discussion about something as opinion based as mics with only one viewpoint.
 
I agree.

AND, I am still waiting to hear audio examples on the great sound these mics have. While I don't have the 15 MP3's of my work using "other" mics posted anymore, they were, and one could download that work and HEAR what they sound like. Very soon here I will have those mp3's back up again. (I actually have hundreds of recordings I have worked on to post....)

I will play on this point a bit more.

It is one thing to read reviews and equipment by people with "reputations".

It is a whole other thing to actually hear these products yourself and how it will apply to your recordings.

I have seen big named engineers recommend gear with two big thumbs up that proved to be some of the crappiest sounding stuff on the market. I will not elaborate anymore on the why's of this. It just happens.

What you, THE LISTENER, don't have the benefit of is actually 1) hearing the audio tracks that ensued from the review 2) the same performer, preamp sometimes, monitors, room to record it, so YOUR results could be very very different. 3) possibly the experience to "maximize" the use of a cheaper piece of gear. In conclusion, the "review" means nothing to your situation.

I have not used the Marshall mics. I will not buy them if they are to be my primary "all purpose" mic until they have proven themselves for a few years, and I hear some outstanding sounding recordings done with them. I keep reading all these great things, but like most Mackie consoles users who claim how great the console is, they don't seem to post any audio examples for one to judge from. Something like the AT 4033 enjoys both. A studio that I work at sometimes has 2X Nuemann U87's, a AKG 414, a ADK 51TC, a AT 4050, and a AT 4033. Guess what? Me and the studio owner wind up hardly EVER finding a case where the U87's sound better on voice or drum overheads then any of the others, so they are seldom used. THAT IS $5000 WORTH OF MICS JUST SITTING AROUND LOOKING GOOD!!!

The 3 most used mics at this studio are the ADK, and the two AT's. I still favor the 4050 over the 4033, but mainly because of the bit more midrange presence and the multiple polar patterns. Essentially though, it sounds the same as a 4033 set in the cardiod setting.

By the way, I have seen the 4033 go for $350 new. You can find them all day long on ebay for around $200-250. THAT is a steal. When they decide to pop up in this thread, you will find that many on this board have bought a 4033 based on my recommendation and at least 9 out of 10 have been extremely pleased with the purchase.

I will not stretch and say that some of the Marshall mics are not decent sounding. I just like to go with time proven products. I am slow to buy, and will save to buy something that is a bit more expensive when it comes to a mic or speakers. In over a decade of audio work, both live and studio, I have found that mics and speakers are exactly the wrong place to be looking for bargains on unproven products. I will swear by a JBL speaker system. I will swear by Shure mics. You know why? Because they provide predictable, good sounding results and a reasonable price that is more then some other companies products, yet far less expensive then others.

I always say, plan on spending a bit more to get what will work well for many years. This is prudent advice, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE ON A TIGHT BUDGET. I see no value in "learning" on cheap gear. That is not to say that you should have the best to start out with either. When someone asks for a "cheap, professional sounding" microphone, I consider something like the 4033 to be both, considering that many of the mics that I really like cost over 4 times as much or more. I have said this before too, that the 4033 used to cost over twice as much as it does now. How are they selling the same mic for half the price now? Hell, I don't know. But, it is an excellent opportunity to step up into a time proven piece of gear that will serve you well for a long time. Yes, it is about 50% more then a NT1, or a Marshall whatever, but at the same time, you are going to be hard pressed to find negative reviews on this mic. It has been a staple in the project studio (and some big time studios too!) for many years, and will continue to be so for more to come. Also consider the resale value of what you are buying. Time proven, good sounding products tend to retain a good resale price. You have no idea with unproven products. I don't consider taking those kinds of chances to be reasonable when one is looking for value.

It would be nice if every quality piece of recording gear was $200 or less, but that is not the case, and probably never will be. I find it funny that many are willing to spend more on a CD player to play their recordings back on then what they spend on their primary "all purpose" mic to record it with!

Ed
 
I am one of those Ed is referring to who went out and got a 4033. It is the most versatile mic I have, the first I go to usually. I have never regretted spending the extra money.

H2H
 
If not the marshalls then what?

What else would you recomend for drum over heads, and maybe vocals?
 
Re: If not the marshalls then what?

JFogarty said:
What else would you recomend for drum over heads, and maybe vocals?

Ummmmmmmmm, maybe re-read my post above?

Ed
 
Re: Sonusman is the sonus man

JFogarty said:
...the mic forum is becoming one big harvey site. Which isn't anything against harvey, but I think its bad to have a discussion about something as opinion based as mics with only one viewpoint.
And I couldn't agree more with both of you. Thay's why I'm trying to educate people here on how mics really work, what specs really mean, and how to listen to a mic when you're trying to evaluate a new mic.

My opinions are just that - my opinions. Nothing more. If you agree with some of my assessments of some mics you're familiar with, then my evaluation of mics you haven't heard yet may be helpful. The only other difference between the bulk of the people here and me, is that I do this stuff for a living - record, that is. Full time, 7 days a week, all year long. The other difference is that I have a fairly large mic locker and I have designed mics before - also for a living. That's also why I asked Al Schmitt to give a listen to the Marshall mics and tell me if I'm way off base. He's Neumann's biggest endorsee.

How bout this as a solution? I'll just keep quiet until someone asks me a direct question? And then only answer it and shut up? Will that work better for everybody?

I don't own a U87 because I don't particularly like the 87. You hafta listen on your own, but first you hafta know how to listen and what to listen for, and that's hard.

I regret that it seems like it's becoming "Harvey's forum", but I'm just trying to help people understand how to use what they have, and make them really understand what they're doing. There ARE some good low priced mics out there that can do a lot of jobs pretty well, but there's no one mic that's perfect for everything - at any price. It's all about trade-offs when you're designing or using mics.

Beyond that, I don't know what else I can do to be helpful (like answering the steel guitar micing question) but somehow maintain a lower profile here. I'm open to any suggestions, including, "Go away!". <G> I don't wanna hog the show here.
 
Does my last post (just above this one) show up on anybody's listing? I can see it, but it doesn't show in the Mic listing.
 
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