Where's the best deal on "real" audio acoustic treatment?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Titanship
  • Start date Start date
Good advice!

Thank you Don,

I bought "Sound Studio Construction on a Budget" by F. Alton Everest right before your posting. I will also get the "Master Handbook of Acoustics". It seems like a really interesting book. "Sound Studio Construction on a Budget" is filled with ideas. Some of it is rather scientific and, thus, not easy to read. Nevertheless, acoustics are complicated. So that is normal and definitely not a problem for me. This information definitely helps you understand the reasons behind each studio design and acoustic treatment.


Lakin
 
Lakin - Iam just wondering (and mulling the purchase) but did you find any more/better info in "Sound Studio Construction on a Budget" then is found in John Sayers stuff at the SAE site?

Thanks
Kevin
 
Hello longsoughtfor,

I think that the John Sayers stuff at the SAE site is great! I especially love the way that he explains why cars and open air are more accurate listening environments. I makes me want to get a car from a junk yard, park it in my studio and set up my board and Mac on the dashboard. I won't do that, of course, because the door is too narrow and I probably would only be able to get a Pacer or a Pinto. However, I do now understand how car acoustics work and why a control room should have some similar qualities. Thank you John. I also understand room modes, why they occur, when they are most troublesome and what actions can reduce these problems.

"Sound Studio Construction on a Budget" has also been helpful. I tend to benefit when I read similar concepts explained in slightly different ways. The explanation on control rooms is also good in this book. Also the chapter on diffusion of sound is quite good. This is all starting to make more and more sense. I still have a lot more to read. So in a couple more pages I may think that the book is great or not so good.

I want to get "The Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest too. I figure that the books cost a lot less than implementing a studio design plan that is flawed. I hate ripping out studding.

If any of you know any books or websites that you think are helpful, please tell me. I am consuming all the information I can get. This info and this forum are really helping a lot.

Thanks,

Lakin
 
Lakin:
Regarding Knauf rigid fiberglass insulation- I have used it recently to build a number of tube bass traps for my control room and vocal booth. The bass traps are outstanding, and I highly recommend them for managing the acoustics in your room. (Particularly if you have excess low bass frequencies to deal with) They're cheap to build and extremely effective. Don's DIY panels also sound like a winner to me, and probably work quite well within the posted NRC of the insulation. I wish I'd made some of these before I spent $200/box of Auralex!

Thanks for the great post Don!
 
It seems like people keep starting new threads to ask the same question over and over again on this forum, but the answer is right here! Fiberglass insulation does work great, and thanks to Folkcafe for pointing this out. In the unfinished basement where my band practices there happens to be uncovered insulation in the walls, and it is extremely effective at absorbing sound and minimizing reflections. A simple test demonstrates this: just shout into the material from a few inches to a foot away and it becomes immediately obvious how well it works - it's like you're shouting into a black hole.

I have one question for Folkcafe or anyone who may know: you say you used rigid fiberglass, whereas I've only "tried" very loose, low-density or lofty stuff which was not covered in paper. Most of the batts and blankets seem to come with covering of some sort (paper, foil, whatever). Do you think this covering makes any bit of difference in its effectiveness, and what's underneath the burlap covering of the stuff you installed?

Thanks
 
A: Do you think this covering makes any bit of difference in its effectiveness, and B: what's underneath the burlap covering of the stuff you installed?

A: Yes it makes it less effective. B:Nothing.

The paper from an acoustic perspective does not make it more effective it makes it less so. Same for foil and whatever. The purpose of this material is as a barrier (vapor). Well it's a reflective not absorbtive material. And that's the point with the fiberglass and burlap or acousticly tranparent cloth covering. Don't use anything with a tight weave or you'll lessen the effectivness. In order to absorb the sound has to penetrate into it. If you cover this material with a barrier it will lessen it's effective NRC rating. What will likely happen is the reflection will be at some upper mid or hi freq. Not good for sound treatment.

The link for Knauf above will demonstrate what I'm saying if you compare plain fiberglass and foil or paper. It's shows the freq range that the absorption turns to nill.

Another thing to note is that rigid panels unlike the loose stuff is fairly well bound together. Loose fiberglass even covered in burlap will let the itchy fibers escape much more than rigid. You can use poly or dacron batts to cover the fiberglass then cover with burlap but you add to the cost and increase the flamibility.

Besides although hard to find it's cheap stuff. Do a search for General Insulation. They have location throughout the country.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
PCHORMAN:

Sure it makes a difference.. any foil or paper you put on, or leave on, will act as a reflector of certain frequencies, and will change the absorbtive quality of the insulation. As an example, think about what it would sound like if you covered all that insulation in your rehearsal space with sheets of tin foil! I assume that's why Folkcafe uses burlap- to pass as many frequencies through to the insulation as possible, while looking relatively pleasing to the eye.

The cylindrical bass traps I've built are covered with a light cotton cloth -for appearance- which is directly over the 1" fiberglass board.

BTW- that was TWO questions...
 
ah, and TWO answers now! ... missed your follow up Don :-)

BTW DON, what did you use to hang those panels on the walls?
 
Dan

I used a hot melt glue gun with low melt temp glue. Make sure you use a heavy duty one as you'll want to melt a lot fast.

As to the burlap, I read an article that said in chamber tests it was nearly as transparent as the industry standard Guilford of Maine fabric. I work for a large audio company and so I had some resources at work to confirm this information including an anechoic chamber if I wanted to test it.

I am very pleased with the results of my effort. Not only do the rooms sound great but they look great too. This is a little part-time studio in my home but when clients come in for the first time, they definately have that wow look on their faces.

One thing many overlook is how one feels about their space. Even if it's just for themselves. Since building my studio, I play more, create more and just spend much more time enjoying music. It is a big comfortable space that every one hangs out in. I love having a space to go relax in. This would be my argument to anyone thinking of doing this. Do it right. You'll be glad you did. I busted my *ss off with my little live sound company for two years to raise the money to build it and it was worth the wait and effort.

The biggest trick to all this was what I call the "deal". I had to make a deal with my wife to be able to spend all this money on my hobby. The deal was, that I could not spend any household funds on this but any money I raised through my part-time business was mine. She really underestimated how much I wanted this because in two years I had put together what I needed to fund the construction and gear. Had she known I'm sure she would have altered the deal.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
So you hot glue the burlap to the fiberboard, and also hot glue the panels to the wall?

General Insulation has a place about 20 mins from here- gotta love it..

The studio sounds awesome Don! got any photos to show ?
 
There are only a couple of early pictures on my web page. These were taken while I was in the middle of treating the room. I have added more panels up on the angled ceiling above the monitors and more on the walls under the desk. I also put a hanging panel above my head that I made out of heavy felt carpet pad, fiberglass insulation and covered with burlap. It's like a heavy sound blanket hung in an arch. I used a grommet kit to make attatchment points and used screw hooks to hang it.

I used the live end / dead end theory of design based on what I'm used to.

I also have 10" deep wedges made out of fiberglass in the rear corners to complete the treatment and even out the bass response of the room. One of the golden eared engineers from my work came over to visit and was really surprised at how even the room sounded. What do yo want, I had 2 years to plan and think about this.

Anyway my web page is at: Folkcafe.com

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
A couple of better pictures

Here is a couple of better pictures of the burlap covered panels.

Studio 1

and

Studio 2

1st pict:
On the wall behind the curtain is a window. I built a frame and an insert that is removable to block any outside noise from coming in. You can see the sound blanket I made at the top right of the picture.

2nd pict:
The ceiling around the desk is 1" and the 2 left and right panels are 2" with a 1/2" soundstop board backing.

Very simple but effective and cheap treatment.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
Don, thanks for the photo's- these panels are just what I'd like to build! They look clean and professionally done.

I don't mean to sound like a fabricating idiot, but for the sake of learning from your experience rather than my own mistakes- Let me get make sure I have this straight: You mount (w/gluegun) the fiberglass panels onto the soundboard and then wrap the burlap around it all and, I assume maybe staplegun or gluegun the cloth to the back side? And how do you then attach them to the ceiling?

Is that Wimpy I spied enjoying a hamburger on your desk?! :-)

DAN
 
OK here is the details.

For the 1" panels I didn't back them with sound stop board. Only the 2" and the two on the wall next to the window has the sound board backing. The 2 on the sides of the desk rest on the desk so hot melt worked fine. On the wall hanging free I tacked them up with hot melt (plenty) and got some 3" aluminum roofing nails and cut the heads off and hammered them in until they were buried into the fiberglass and out of site. 2 nails each have held them in place for over a year so it should be no trouble.

For the plain panels I used one of those carpet tack strips I had left over. The nails are oriented at an angle so if you bury the nails in through the burlap and into the fiberglass on 1 side and stretch the burlap fairly tight and use another tack strip to hold the entire assembly together while gluing it up.

For glueing up the ones with sound stop board I glued them beforehand with liquid nail construction glue and put them aside while I worked on the other.

It all goes a little easier with 2 people and be careful with the hot glue as it burns. I used a 4' aluminum ruler to act as a heat sink to cool the glue down faster.

The tips I have for you are.

Orient the fabric the way you want it first. Figure a way to hold it in place so it doesn't move out of place. The tack strip worked great for this.

Glue length wise first making sure the grids of the burlap are straight and even.

Cut a notch in the burlap in the corners so there is a fold the thickness of the fiberglass. From there it's just like wrapping a present.

Something like an aluminum yardstick works wonders as a heatsink to disapate and harden the hot melt glue. Also make the work go along faster.

I need to make a few more so maybe while I have a week off during the holidays I can take pictures of the construction details and post them up. That is if I can get my digital camera to stop acting weird. I think the media card is hosed.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions

Sorry if there are any errors but the wife is yelling cause we have to go to a party.
 

Sorry if there are any errors but the wife is yelling cause we have to go to a party. [/B]
Click to expand...



Ha! been there...

Seriously, Muchos graicas senore for taking the time to post this info! That should make it kids play to build. Gotta love this BBS!
 
Well none the worse for wear and tear. Back from the diner party. Hasn't the wife heard of being fashionably late. Our host was only the CEO of her company.

One last thing I wanted to add. Use an iron to take out the wrinkles in the burlap. I know real men don't iron but the job will come out better if you do. Pull the shades down if you don't want anyone to see. I suggest you send the wife out, otherwise she may get the wrong idea if she catches you ironing. You might end up having to do it all the time. The first panel I made looked like crap because I hadn't figure out how to stretch out the burlap and the wrinkles made it look even worse.

And yes a staple gun works on the panels backed with sound stop boards. I glued them anyway. I didn't trust the board to hold the staples.

I love the web too (this BBS and many others). It's made this world so much smaller and getting information so much easier.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
Man, I feel like a friggin moron.

Ive got this design rolling through my head. Your burlap absorption panels and then I have John's timber designs in my head as well. And still not quite sure I understand what is going on here. But, I will read through it all again.

First, I have a question. The studio I am building in my home will have to be pretty much dead. Could I make it essentially dead using either of these acoustic treatments? Or would I need to just look at buying foam absorbers?
 
Why dead? Here at work we have an anchoic chamber. You can't get much deader than that. It's great for making measurements but would be lousy room for recording. This is the problem I see with many older vocal booths. They are treated to death and as a result sound very unnatural.

Are you attempting to isolate sound or balance it? Sound treating is not the same as sound proofing. Both of these panels will offer some minor isolation but are best used to deal with balance kinds of problems a room has. Soundproofing is something best done during the construction process and is not something that is just hung on the walls later. This is why existing spaces can be tough to deal with. Also expensive.

So if you can clarify your goals maybe we can be of some help in making it work.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions
 
This thread is haunting me too! :>)

I'm wondering.... when I go to the Knauf Fiberglass site (http://www.knauffiberglass.com/products/Dsp_Data.cfm?ID=12), I see great numbers for the 4" board. Should I use that for the really best effect?
4" 3.0 PCF plain
125 Hz - .95
250 Hz - 1.11
500 Hz - 1.17
1000 Hz - 1.07
2000 Hz - 1.07
4000 Hz - 1.06

-lee-
 
Thanks Don. Here are my goals.

1. Im not worried TOO much about soundproofing, although I will take what I can get. :)

2. The reason I would say dead is because I dont think there is any hope in making my space sonically pleasing. So, I would think I can at least deaden it to get all the room noise/echo out. I can always used processed fx in the end.

I am working with an approx 15 1/2 x 13 1/2 foot space. I will have to construct my (small) control and (small) live room out of this. I have two big walk-in closets on the right side of the room which will be converted to a vocal booth and an instrument booth.

I am all ears.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top