Where's the best deal on "real" audio acoustic treatment?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Titanship
  • Start date Start date
T

Titanship

New member
Peace Ya'll,
Does anyone have an inside on a dealer with good prices for treatment? Man, this stuff is like buying Gold! I should build a facility to manufacture it.
Thanks, titan
 
Yes! You should manufacture your own. It can be fairly easy.

Here is what I found out after doing a ton of information searching. 1" Rigid fiberglass insulation is as effective as 2" of foam and is extremely cheap. I purchased a couple of bundles of 1" & 2" 2'X4' panels and covered them with colored burlap. I used a hot melt glue gun and cranked out a bunch of these in a day.

The stuff I used was Knauf brand insulation. The Owens Corning (pink stuff) was hard to find. If you look at the #3lb density, plain face, NRC ratings and compare them to foam it will show how well fiberglass absorbs across the spectrum. Fiberglass is said to do strange things in the very high end so the burlap is essential in the design. Another cloth designed for this is from Gilford of Maine but is very pricey. The acoustic transparency of burlap is similar.

Check it out at

Knauffiberglass.com

Compare it to Sonex at
Sonex NRC table


With the help of a couple of good books on acoustics and armed with lots of information I managed to tune my room nicely and cheaply. I also like the look of the cloth panels as opposed to foam. It is also more durable.

There are tons of designs for do it yourself treatments on the web. You can do much with just a few dollars. None of the stuff I did was original. I just dug down deep into the ideas and applied a bit of math and acoustic theory before I assembled them. I applied a couple of my own tweaks to some tried and true stuff. Like layering fiberglass and Homasote together to extend the lower range of absorption. I used this to great effect on the outside layer of my studio walls to further isolate the outside world from the studio. Mine is not the typical basement studio. It's in my large attic. (control room 13X18 & studio 18X24) The inner studio walls consist of 2 layers of drywall, 2X6 insulated frame, 1 outer layer of drywall covered by 2" of rigid fiberglass covered by Homasote sound board all very tightly sealed.

The construction was so effective, I can listen & mix at fairly loud levels and not disturb my sleeping kids downstairs.

10 2" 2X4' panels is about $60. Burlap is about $2 a lin. yard. A little hot melt glue and some labor and you have 80 sq. ft. of absorbtive panels. That's way less than a buck a sq. foot. Compared to $2.60 a ft. for 2" foam Sonex. Better & cheaper.

Don Goguen
 
I guess I am the rain on everyone's "inexpensive acoustical treatment" parade - but here goes again......

Sonix and auralex foams are expensive for main reason - they do not burn.

Typical furniture cushion foam and especially styrofoam insulation board are extremely flammable. When hung vertically on walls or affixed to ceilings - if there is a fire their flame spread rate is virtually instaneous. They will rapidly release high amounts of heat and extremely toxic gases. One sheet of styrofoam on a wall in a room on fire can cause a room a to flashover in a few short minutes. The smoke and gases will build up a spread so fast that escape will be impossible - not a good thing for you or your family!!!!!!!

Never mind the nice clean fires you saw in the movie "Backdraft" the most realistic part of that movie was whne they were on top of the hose bed of the engine doing.......well you know!

Styrofoam insulation board is OK for residential construction when it is used as insulation - the reason is it is covered from the interior side with sheetrock so it is not exposed to fire - but unexposed in an occupied space is extremely hazardous.

If you are using this stuff in a commercial studio or in a room in an apartment with other renters you will be on some legal hook for a fire and damages if it is involved.

There was a similar post here a couple of weeks back that I replied similarly to ( I should figure out how to keep a copy of this :) )

I have 28 years in the fire department as my career and have seen the bad results of materials used in ways they are not designed for.

Now that I have ranted - you do need to know the hazards of this stuff so you can make an educated decision on it's use.

Happy (and safe) Recording :)
 
Some Clarification

Bloomington said:
I guess I am the rain on everyone's "inexpensive acoustical treatment" parade - but here goes again......


I have 28 years in the fire department as my career and have seen the bad results of materials used in ways they are not designed for.
Click to expand...

I guess I do raining to :0)

There need to be a clarification to what kind of treatments were talking about here. While Folkcafe mentioned insualtive materials as a fix, I noticed there might be an inference to studio foams, meaning sonex or aularex products. The materials mentioned in folkcafe's post all just fine for increasing the stc ratings, the Homasote and Kauffiberglass.com are available in class A fire ratings which shouldn't be a problem. Neither of the products contain styrofoam which is good, its only a tad bit more flammable than the carpet in your house ;0). The paper backing on your insulation that came with your house isnt fire rated for obvious reasons. If your worried about fire hazards I suggest looking at your electrical load for each of you fuses, make sure it hasn't been messed with. Maybe while there is a section done by Ed Rei on recording basics on the frontpage we should suggest a safety section for wiring, and the use of flammable materials in studio design. While the originator of this post never mentioned styrofoam it could have been an idea as a substtute for the Homasote or Fiberglass. If your unsure about the flammability ask for a sample and light it, if you have to let go of the sample in less than 30 seconds, try something else. Just because is says its not flammable doesn't make it true. How many things have been recalled after UL tested it. Another quick tip, feel your outlets for heat when everything in plugged in. Remember, styrofoam is for people who drink but don't smoke.

Im putting Bloomington in charge of recording safety.

Peace,
Dennis
 
Thanks All. Yes Bloomington, I read your earlier "safety post." Much appreciated. I don't smoke, and no one will enter the studio with any of their refreshing burley's. Still, I'm leary of the egg crate style of foam.

Sounds like a good idea folkcafe. I'll look into that too.

Perhaps I'll save my pennies for the good stuff.
titan
 
1" Rigid fiberglass insulation doesn't burn either. As atomictoyz said it absorbs lower down than foams and at half the thickness.

cheers
John
 
Bloomington

I more than understand your warning but I'm also sure you understand that it is more likely than not, that it's the common everyday items that are most likely to catch fire and burn out of control.

You understand this from your job and I understand it from personal experience. I lost my electronics repair business when the 4 year old living in the apartment above my shop lit her bed on fire with mommy's lighter. What a mess. Thankfully no one was injured. Just my means of supporting my family.

Using your logic should I banish our bedding and upholstered furnishings?

You also probably understand that my studio's futon is more likely to go up than the cloth covered fiberglass panels I have up on my wall. I carefully considered the Gilfords cloth as it is a commercial product and is fire treated. As I am so militant about matches and such around the house (just ask my wife about how much I hassle her about her scented candles) I made the decision based on our lifestyle. Our risk is reasonably low. I am no doubt in more danger when I get in my car and commute to work than in my studio. If disaster were to strike it would likely come from some other part of my home.

I agree that safety is very important. I have taken all the prudent steps I could think of due to my experience. My studio has wired smoke detectors and 2 fire extinguishers. Short of living in a cold steel box there is little you can do to completely eliminate all risks. I did not consider cheap foam for many reasons. Fire risk is just one of them.

You can defend the companies that make these acoustic product if you want. I understand all too well the profit margins are extremely high on these. You will never convince me that the added cost to fire retard foam justifies the huge cost difference. Understand that I am a dyed in the wool capitalist. If they can convice anyone that there brand of acoustic vodoo is right for them, so be it. No one is ever going to convince me that someone is not making a killing on products like the ART model C or E diffusers. We put up a large amount of the E's in a problamatic control room at work and I'll tell you I had to shake my head when I opened the box and pulled out these little sonic wonders. How they can look you in the eye and charge what they do makes used car salespeople look like saints.

If they can convince you that you need them, so be it. Armed with enough knowledge to be acousticly dangerous, I said no thank you.

Anyone who feels differently can always go and buy these products but they are not acousticly better.

Don Goguen
 
Not to add to the slew of safety messages, but I can assure you fires don't always start by smoking (though I did see a studio wall light up because the girlfriend of a drummer (I think) touched the wall foam accidentally with her cigarette and whooooosh, the wall (and her hair) went right up.

Gear in studios on rare occasions have been known to blow up, smoke, die, along with the wires. I saw in one case where a rack mounted power strip decided to "pop" due to a power surge, and it did its job to protect the equipment. however, the power strip blew its casing apart, stunk up the studio, and managed to burn a few audio cables tightly tied to the inside of the rack rail. No major fire, but it could have happened has something else thats more flammable been there (like a drape, a blanket, something tossed over the rack, maybe a few manuals lying on that unit?)

Then there is the reverse problem. A good friend of mine took studio safety very seriously, as at this time he was making his studio available for public use. So to comply with local fire code, he had to install a ceiling mount extinguisher system. Based on code, he could use water, or the white powder kind. He chose not to go with water as water and SSL consoles generally are not fond of each other, which at the time I thought made perfect sense.

A few years later, something went funky with the electronic detection, and his entire studio, I mean the whole thing, (2) live rooms, three vocal booths, the console room, the tape room, and the reel library room filled up with this white powder, making the room unbreathable and people nearly choked to death, including me.

Of course, now comes the problem how does one get nasty, sticky white powder out of the consoles, off the tape machines, the gear, and out of the air.

All because some wires in the wall shorted, and the alarm system thought the studio was burning to the ground.

I'm sharing this not because its particularly useful to your plight, but the discussion here triggered the memory of picking this crap out of my ears with q-tips dipped in mineral oil as well as the look on my buddy's face when he realized a shop vac wasn't going to clean his prized SSL console, and his two Otari 24 tracks.


Titanship said:
Thanks All. Yes Bloomington, I read your earlier "safety post." Much appreciated. I don't smoke, and no one will enter the studio with any of their refreshing burley's. Still, I'm leary of the egg crate style of foam.

Sounds like a good idea folkcafe. I'll look into that too.

Perhaps I'll save my pennies for the good stuff.
titan
Click to expand...
 
Don

As I re-read your original post you said you used pink fiberglass insulation boards - in my usual haste of rushing thru things I got it stuck in my head as pink styrofoam insulation board - A BIG DIFFERENCE !

The fiberglass is a reasonably safe fire choice - in fact a number of lay in ceiling panels of fiberglass have fire resistance ratings - which is good. Pink styrofaom is NOT GOOD though.

I would like to say my first response was solely that I thought others would also read "pink fiberglass" as "pink styrofoam" as I did but that is not so - however trying to defend my self a bit :) others may mistake the two terms so I have vindicated myself :) (trying to be a bit tongue in cheek here)

As far as the comment that other things catch fire that is true - it is just the high fuel load ( hence high BTU and smoke release) certain foam products contribute to a fire is the issue.

There have been good comments back on this issue - the main thing to keep in mind is that if we are going use other than specifically designed materials for acoustical control we should be sure that is't normal use is intended to be exposed to occupied areas and not covered up by a fire retardent material.

Brad
 
so, do you mean I don't have to rip off my sheet rock and pull out the styrofoam (not rubber foam)? I'm somewhat safe?
 
:eek: Yikes - looks like I have created a slight monster here - sorry :)

If you have styrofoam insulation board up but it is covered by sheet rock it is perfectly safe - in fact that is the way it is intended to be applied. It is just when it is directly exposed to occupied areas where it can be a problem.

Brad
 
It's OK Brad.

We know you meant well. We're just giving you a hard time.

Don Goguen
 
Hello Don,

The Knauffiberglass.com fiberglass really seems like a great deal. I am seeing NRCs (Noise Reduction Coefficients) on their website that are certainly comparable to acoustic foam.

1.6 PCF (26 kg/m3) Plain 2" (51 mm)
125 Hz: .31
250 Hz: .57
500 Hz: .96
1000 Hz: 1.04
2000 Hz: 1.03
4000 Hz: 1.03
NRC: .90

vs.

2" Auralex Studiofoam Wedges
125 Hz: .11
250 Hz: .30
500 Hz: .91
1000 Hz: 1.05
2000 Hz: ,99
4000 Hz: 1.00
NRC: .80

1.6 PCF (26 kg/m3) Plain 2" beats 2" Auralex Studiofoam Wedges everywhere but 1000 Hz and that is only by 0.01.

You bought 10 2" 2X4' panels is about $60? Most places I see sell one 2" Auralex Studiofoam Wedges 2X4' for around $18.

Has anyone else used this stuff? I am definitely interested?

Don, what do you mean that the fiberglass does strange things in the high end? It seems from the NRC that it is similar and slightly better than acoustic foam, at least in noise reduction. Does it have some other strange effect?

Great suggestion!


Lakin
 
Hello Don,

The Knauffiberglass.com fiberglass really seems like a great deal. I am seeing NRCs (Noise Reduction Coefficients) on their website that are certainly comparable to acoustic foam.

1.6 PCF (26 kg/m3) Plain 2" (51 mm)
125 Hz: .31
250 Hz: .57
500 Hz: .96
1000 Hz: 1.04
2000 Hz: 1.03
4000 Hz: 1.03
NRC: .90

vs.

2" Auralex Studiofoam Wedges
125 Hz: .11
250 Hz: .30
500 Hz: .91
1000 Hz: 1.05
2000 Hz: ,99
4000 Hz: 1.00
NRC: .80

1.6 PCF (26 kg/m3) Plain 2" beats 2" Auralex Studiofoam Wedges everywhere but 1000 Hz and that is only by 0.01.

You bought 10 2" 2X4' panels is about $60? Most places I see sell one 2" Auralex Studiofoam Wedges 2X4' for around $18.

Has anyone else used this stuff? I am definitely interested?

Don, what do you mean that the fiberglass does strange things in the high end? It seems from the NRC that it is similar and slightly better than acoustic foam, at least in noise reduction. Doesn't have some other strange effect?

Great suggestion!


Lakin
 
Book cases for diffusion

I remember seeing somewhere in one of the threads of the "Studio Building and Display" forums that someone suggested using book cases filled with different sized books as a cost effective way to diffuse sound. I think it may have been described as the poor man's solution. I know that this thread is called "Where's the best deal on "real" audio acoustic treatment?". I just know that diffusion is an important acoustic treatment. So, please accept my apologies if a filled book case does not qualify as "real" audio acoustic treatment. I, honestly have no idea if it does or doesn't and, thus, the question.

How effective are book cases filled with different sized books? If they are comparable to T'Fusor 3D Sound Diffusors and other similar products, it seems like a no brainer. I have noticed that books are packed with information and knowledge, a quality that I have not found in foam. I would love to have music books, recording books, etc. provide an additional benefit. Would a filled book case really be good diffuser?

Thanks for your help.
 
What I've heard is that, uncovered it does strange things in the extreme high freq. range. Perhaps years of rock and roll have limited my hearing ( I know it has) but I didn't percieve a problem when I placed them before covering them. Fiberglass is a hard surface (although a small hard surface). The burlap takes care of this minor reflection.

As for diffusors do a search for poly cylindrical diffusors. These are cheaper to build (unless you own a ton of books) and more predictable.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions

folkcafe.com
 
good books on acoustics

Hello Don,

Thank you for the advice. I will do a search for poly cylindrical diffusors.

I would also like to better understand acoustics. This stuff is interesting and the more I know, the better. Could you recommend any good books on acoustics and studio design?

Thanks.

Lakin
 
The one book most used on acoustics would likely be "The Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest. It is not what I would describe as a light read but for those serious about the subject it's a must have.

I work in a studio for a large audio manufacture. In their corporate library, there are lots of books on acoustics. I have found some useful information in a number of books on the subject. The one book I could never find on the shelf of our library is the above book. It is always out. I ended up having to buy my own. This is no minor statement. I am a big "get it from the library" kind of guy (read cheap). I own only a handful of reference books and this is one of the best ones.

I have been very fortunate. The company I work for, offers a number of internal courses including acoustics and audio measurement (FFT and such). Even though not directly related to my studio job (hardware geek) I took full advantage of all the course offerings. Came in real handy when I built my home studio. My biggest point I tell people is that it is possible to build and treat useful rooms without spending a fortune.

Don Goguen
Folk Cafe Productions



folkcafe.com
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top