J
jono_3
New member
VotaIdiota said:
beautiful
beautiful
drstawl
Banned
I'm mixing a trio with the bass off to the right and the guitar off to the left because that's how this band sounds live. And no, they are not the Beatles.
J
Jack Hammer
New member
The example of the stage set-up is flawed logic. Though you may see the bass on one side of the stage, bass sound is non-directional. You do not HEAR it from one side but from everywhere, sort of. Bass is an omnipresent sound particularly in modern popular music forms. That is why there is usually only one sub-woofer and placement is not that big an issue. Therefore, to NOT mess up the natural characteristics of the bass, it is not panned anywhere but center. Down the middle so that there is good, even bass support for the entire sound,
Blue Bear Sound
New member
That's not quite true....Jack Hammer said:
The extreme low frequencies may be less-directional, but the higher frequencies generated by overtones definitely are very directional....
I definitely hear it if a sub is placed off-centre, and it drives me nuts.............!
drstawl
Banned
>You do not HEAR it from one side but from everywhere, sort of.
Sorry, no.
I've also recorded them live with a stereo pair from the audience and the bass is on the right and the guitar is on the left. They have the vocals and drums in the center.
Sorry, no.
I've also recorded them live with a stereo pair from the audience and the bass is on the right and the guitar is on the left. They have the vocals and drums in the center.
S
sjjohnston
New member
A few notes:
On the Beatles thing, theories, opinions and urban legends differ. So far as I can tell ...
The earliest Beatles records were mixed to mono. There was no stereo mix. The master tape, however, did have two tracks: one all vocals, and one all instruments. Presumably George Martin did this so he (or the mastering engineeer) could rebalance voices and instruments when cutting the master disk, if necessary. When Capitol released the records in the US, they felt some bizarre need to release a stereo version. So the stereo version (in those days records were often released in both a mono and a stereo version) has vocals on one side and instruments on the other. It's very strange. Capitol also apparently added some reverb. And, as most people know, they also cut the number of songs per record, moved songs around from album to album, resequenced them, renamed albums, changed cover art, and created whole albums that only existed in the US (like "Yesterday and Today").
All of the above relates to the vinyl releases on the Capitol label. The CD releases of the early records go back to the original English versions. The ones that were supposed to be mono are mono on the CDs.
Later releases were mixed to both mono and stereo. Apparently, though, at least up through Sgt. Pepper, George Martin et al. generally thought of the mono mix as "the" version, and the stereo as sort of an afterthought to satisfy Capitol or whoever. The panning on these version is, by modern standards, strange and often extreme. I think that is the way George Martin did it, though. In his sort-of defense, he may not have put a huge amount of thought into the panning. Personally, I like them that way.
On the directionality thing: based on my perception of things, the bass (by which I mean the sound produced by the instrument called a "bass") is directional. I can tell where it's panned. Or at least I think I can. It seems to me that a lot of the sound produced by a bass, at least in a typical rock-sounding bass, isn't in the bass register, so that would probably go a long way to explaining the directionality.
Panning bass to the center is pretty standard nowadays. Actually, panning just about everything pretty darn close to the center is pretty standard nowadays.
If you want to do something that's not standard, go ahead. If you're a home recordist, do it however sounds the way you like it. If you're trying to please a record producer, you'll probably want to pan it to the center.
On the Beatles thing, theories, opinions and urban legends differ. So far as I can tell ...
The earliest Beatles records were mixed to mono. There was no stereo mix. The master tape, however, did have two tracks: one all vocals, and one all instruments. Presumably George Martin did this so he (or the mastering engineeer) could rebalance voices and instruments when cutting the master disk, if necessary. When Capitol released the records in the US, they felt some bizarre need to release a stereo version. So the stereo version (in those days records were often released in both a mono and a stereo version) has vocals on one side and instruments on the other. It's very strange. Capitol also apparently added some reverb. And, as most people know, they also cut the number of songs per record, moved songs around from album to album, resequenced them, renamed albums, changed cover art, and created whole albums that only existed in the US (like "Yesterday and Today").
All of the above relates to the vinyl releases on the Capitol label. The CD releases of the early records go back to the original English versions. The ones that were supposed to be mono are mono on the CDs.
Later releases were mixed to both mono and stereo. Apparently, though, at least up through Sgt. Pepper, George Martin et al. generally thought of the mono mix as "the" version, and the stereo as sort of an afterthought to satisfy Capitol or whoever. The panning on these version is, by modern standards, strange and often extreme. I think that is the way George Martin did it, though. In his sort-of defense, he may not have put a huge amount of thought into the panning. Personally, I like them that way.
On the directionality thing: based on my perception of things, the bass (by which I mean the sound produced by the instrument called a "bass") is directional. I can tell where it's panned. Or at least I think I can. It seems to me that a lot of the sound produced by a bass, at least in a typical rock-sounding bass, isn't in the bass register, so that would probably go a long way to explaining the directionality.
Panning bass to the center is pretty standard nowadays. Actually, panning just about everything pretty darn close to the center is pretty standard nowadays.
If you want to do something that's not standard, go ahead. If you're a home recordist, do it however sounds the way you like it. If you're trying to please a record producer, you'll probably want to pan it to the center.
Toki987
Rock Steady
interesting.... I agree that bass should be centered for its impact value in the music and support in balancing the field under the thinner voices. And for live re-enforcement mixing the bass should always be centered. But to try to generate a faux-live sound would you not allow for field placement of the sounds and pan in small %`s to give the impression like it would be set up on stage and the listener at about 30 ft out center? Of course, thats providing there is enough voices out there to allow it without it making you roll out of the chair to one side trying to listen to it. THe engineeer on the last Dregs live album did an awesome job in panning.
D
Dave S.
New member
Bass always in the center?
Not in classical or jazz.
Dave
Not in classical or jazz.
Dave
drstawl
Banned
This isn't a "faux" live sound, just the same panning that's achieved by their stage setup. The drums are placed in the center and either need no mics, or are routed into the PA to reproduce the natural stereo placement of the toms. The vocals are centered in the PA with cabs far left and far right. The guitarist sets up two large stacks of amps/cabs to the left of the drummer and the bass player has two large stacks of the same to the right of the drummer.
When I stereo mic this from about 30 feet out, this placement is what I'm trying to achieve on this CD. It's not a "hard" pan but a noticeable one.
When I stereo mic this from about 30 feet out, this placement is what I'm trying to achieve on this CD. It's not a "hard" pan but a noticeable one.
dobro
Well-known member
"Though you may see the bass on one side of the stage, bass sound is non-directional. You do not HEAR it from one side but from everywhere, sort of. Bass is an omnipresent sound particularly in modern popular music forms."
Well, if that's the case, then it doesn't matter much where I pan the bass in the mix, if it's heard 'everywhere, sort of'.
Anyway, when I pan it right, I hear it right.
Well, if that's the case, then it doesn't matter much where I pan the bass in the mix, if it's heard 'everywhere, sort of'.
Anyway, when I pan it right, I hear it right.
Toki987
Rock Steady
dobro said:
I agree with you there, on sub-bass. Upper spectrum of the bass voice is highly recognizable as to its point of origination.
MISTERQCUE
Not Just Anutha Brutha
Dave S. said:
HUH!!?? What jazz have you been listening to?
Listen to Stan Clarke, Will Lee, Miroslav, Milt Hinton et al.
In Be-bop, where there's usually a trio or quartet (Miles,Carter,Tatum etc) where an acoustic is used, it's usually doubled mic'd with the low-end directed dead-center and the upper-register is panned slightly off center in conjunction with
harmonic portions of piano.
Bass-line "Walks" (See Ron Carter) are also panned dead-center as not only do transcend the essential bottom core , but also
provide the complimentary, rhythmic flow in time with the drummer's kick! In fusion,avant-garde,swing and blue's jazz forms, the bass is normally recorded center since the perf is an integral piece to the overall ensemble.
Nile Rodgers also stated in Guitar Magazine......."Positioning the bass other than center lessen's the impact and dynamics of the lower end...."
Too many times, the bass is treated as a bottom-filler for the song rather than an integral part of the production.
Yes, experimentation can be done by certain modes of panning
and one does not have to conform to the norm, but son, most bass in jazz recordings have been placed center with the exceptions of earlier recordings by Blakey,Hines,Lee,Monk,Coltrane,Smith, etc who's ensembles were usually recorded via different means.
I've been on bass d@mn near 30 years (with some family downtime thrown in the mix) and during my early session days,
bass right smack, down, the mid!! (Gosh , I miss those days!!!)
M
maddrummer
New member
Yea I definately agree with Dave S. Alot of older jazz has the bass all over the place. I think it works but I really don't dig it all that much.
-Bill Evans
-Dave Brubeck
-Miles Davis-"Miles Smiles" and other miles stuff, there's a decent amount of pretty hard panning done here, not always 100% but alot.
-John Coltrane- Giant Steps has it and some on Blue Train (I like the bass on Interstellar Space)
-Charles Mingus has some off centered stuff
-Bill Evans
-Dave Brubeck
-Miles Davis-"Miles Smiles" and other miles stuff, there's a decent amount of pretty hard panning done here, not always 100% but alot.
-John Coltrane- Giant Steps has it and some on Blue Train (I like the bass on Interstellar Space)
-Charles Mingus has some off centered stuff
D
Dave S.
New member
When I think jazz, I think Count Basie, Duke Ellington, etc. Also, being a trumpet player, a boatload of those including Maynard, Miles etc. All of whom have made recordings that (when in stereo 
) have the bass off-center.
BTW I don't think "son" is really appropriate here, since I 've been playing for over 30 years (with no time off ).
Dave S.
) have the bass off-center.BTW I don't think "son" is really appropriate here, since I 've been playing for over 30 years (with no time off
).Dave S.
MISTERQCUE
Not Just Anutha Brutha
Dave S. said:.
BTW I don't think "son" is really appropriate here, since I 've been playing for over 30 years (with no time off
Dave S.
The term "SON" is used by us brutha's as a term of endearment!
Similar to "homie" "dawg" "posse" etc!!
D
Dave S.
New member
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.
Dave S.
Dave S.
heylow
New member
These responses frighten me.
Sure, the "usual" spot in center....
But whatever happened to "wherever you think it sounds good?"
These kinds of "set rules" are what is crippling modern music and turning out cookie cutter productions.
Furthermore, the notion that you have to be the beatles to pan bass out is absurd!!!! Firstly, they are not the only great recordings to have done it.....and secondly, if the statement is true, then i move that no here bother recording unless you are Sir George and dont bother to record guitar unless you are Jimi Hendrix.
Sheesh,
This kind of stuff is what keeps newbies dull. Imagine Sir George or Steve Albini coming here to ask questions........sure wouldnt be the same recordings.
heylow
Sure, the "usual" spot in center....
But whatever happened to "wherever you think it sounds good?"
These kinds of "set rules" are what is crippling modern music and turning out cookie cutter productions.
Furthermore, the notion that you have to be the beatles to pan bass out is absurd!!!! Firstly, they are not the only great recordings to have done it.....and secondly, if the statement is true, then i move that no here bother recording unless you are Sir George and dont bother to record guitar unless you are Jimi Hendrix.
Sheesh,
This kind of stuff is what keeps newbies dull. Imagine Sir George or Steve Albini coming here to ask questions........sure wouldnt be the same recordings.
heylow
K
kormaniac
New member
bass
When you see a live band...just because the bass player is standing on one side...doesn't imply the bass is coming from that side of the stage...its all piped through a PA system and mixed there...right?
As for panning the bass right or left when monitoring...of course you'll hear it in the side your panning to...I think the point of what they were saying is that because its predominately low frequency...and the wavelengths are therefore so long, it should be balanced in the middle to create your foundation. You don't want to put the foundation of your house off center from the weight of the house...but you can always build some funky things that 'pan' off the house...like a deck or porch.
The bass is the glue...keep the foundation in the middle.
When you see a live band...just because the bass player is standing on one side...doesn't imply the bass is coming from that side of the stage...its all piped through a PA system and mixed there...right?
As for panning the bass right or left when monitoring...of course you'll hear it in the side your panning to...I think the point of what they were saying is that because its predominately low frequency...and the wavelengths are therefore so long, it should be balanced in the middle to create your foundation. You don't want to put the foundation of your house off center from the weight of the house...but you can always build some funky things that 'pan' off the house...like a deck or porch.
The bass is the glue...keep the foundation in the middle.
Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
I hear you heylow!
Art should be creative. However.....
The reason putting the bass in the center is the "usual" setting is because after years of experimenting with this crazy thing called stereo-phonic sound, thousands of engineers have arrived at the conclusion that panning it that way sounds the best.
Now.......
A color motion picture is far more accurate than a black-and-white one, and most modern pictures are made with color for that reason. Yet cinematographers still use B&W as an artistic choice. Can you imagine The Wizard of Oz if it had been done "right"? Can you imagine Schindler's list if it was filmed "properly"? And don't even get me started on the BRILLIANT cinematography of "Oh Brother Where Art Though"!
So......
I think it's easy to say that bass panned center is "right". I also think it's easy to say that the more creative risk-takers among us are always going to come up with "wrong" ways of doing things that are absolutely brilliant.
Everybody happy?
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
Art should be creative. However.....
The reason putting the bass in the center is the "usual" setting is because after years of experimenting with this crazy thing called stereo-phonic sound, thousands of engineers have arrived at the conclusion that panning it that way sounds the best.
Now.......
A color motion picture is far more accurate than a black-and-white one, and most modern pictures are made with color for that reason. Yet cinematographers still use B&W as an artistic choice. Can you imagine The Wizard of Oz if it had been done "right"? Can you imagine Schindler's list if it was filmed "properly"? And don't even get me started on the BRILLIANT cinematography of "Oh Brother Where Art Though"!
So......
I think it's easy to say that bass panned center is "right". I also think it's easy to say that the more creative risk-takers among us are always going to come up with "wrong" ways of doing things that are absolutely brilliant.
Everybody happy?
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
drstawl
Banned
>all piped through a PA system and mixed there...right?
Nope. The band I mentioned only puts the vocals through the P.A.
unless they are playing a larger venue, in which case 4 out of 5 times the house sound guy ruins the mix.
Nope. The band I mentioned only puts the vocals through the P.A.
unless they are playing a larger venue, in which case 4 out of 5 times the house sound guy ruins the mix.