Where have I been? What's with all the small low wattage heads these days...

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That's true for vintage style amps that rely strictly on power tube distortion to create a certain tone. Modern amps with cascading preamp stages can get a fantastic tone at lower volumes. The gist of the argument for high wattage amps is that they possess features that the vintage style low wattage amps lack. The low wattage amps are great for blues but for hard rock a high wattage amp at the same db level tone wise will eat the low watter alive.

word! i can run my V3 at a medium volume and it sounds fscking awesome. these amps also have a 100/50 watt switch that helps, but i don't believe you have to dime out a tube amp to get great tone out of it. it's all about passing the signal thru a good set of tubes, weather you drive them into breakup or not.

that legacy is a damn nice amp, btw. i almost bought one but couldn't stop drooling over the V3. :D
 
Forgetting solid state amps (which honestly the vast majority I've played I wouldn't bother with - for better or for worse I'm a "tube snob," through in through. You can argue this, but until you find me a solid state amp with the same touch-sensitivity as a lightly driven Mesa I'm not intrested), the VAST majority of small tube amps are single channel. The Black Heart 5 watter has 3 band EQ, but a simple volume control, no channel, and no loop. The Krank Revolution Jr DOES have two channels, but with a shared midrange control and no loop (and besides, for what I do the Revolution sound just doesn't really work). The Epi Valve Jr. has a single "volume" knob, nothing else. The Egnater Rebel is actually the closest to what I'm looking for (although at 20 watts, it's not THAT low wattage), but again is only a single channel.

So, if I'm looking for an amp with, at a bare minimum, footswitchable channels and an FX loop, and on top of that would like all of the features I'm used to on the amps I've been using for the past, oh, 6 years - multiple modes per channel, a switchable clean boost, swtichable reverb, etc - then there's currently nothing on the market that can even come close to what I'm looking for with a low-wattage power section, especially when we start talking about the tone of the amp (again, the Egnater sounds interesting, but I've been a Mesa player for the better part of a decade, ignoring a brief Marshall flirtation in the middle there, and Mesa does a particular sort of lead sound that no one else seems to).

If I'm used to a Mesa Rectoverb combo, then there's no way I'm going to be able to trade the thing in for a Epiphone Vale Junior and a ton of pedals, and be happy with either the tone I'm getting or the tap dance routine I'd have to do to switch from a clean sound to a distorted sound, switch to a new EQ pedal, and add delay. :confused:
no I am not forgetting SS it is that I don't have any desire to mention them and you are talking 2K price difference in amps too; good components cost more money.
I have a Mesa Big Block Titan V12 that will be buried with me but it is not the end all to bass rigs. and just because I own the top of the line bass amp Mesa engineering makes does not mean that I am too good to play through a sansamp DI'd to the house PA. sure I will tell a difference in my tone but the audience is going to give a shit less about something that I am more anal retentive about than they are. every amp manufacturer has its own trademark tone Mesa is no different but you are going to dig deep in your pockets to get that tone you want otherwise you will need to get some stomp boxes. for the most part that is what people do, they buy amps that are reliable and affordable and buy effects processors and still have not come close to what a Boutique amp head cost.

the whole point of the matter is that most people listening to you whether it be live or recorded is not going to be able to tell what kind of amp you are playing through nor do they really care. all they know is they know what they like and dispite how much you like the tone you are gettig out of your equipment of choice will not mean a thing if the paying audience is not buying your material.
oh and I did forget to mention that that mesa rig takes up a whole lot more room than a Behringer V-Amp Pro therefore that is why it stays in the trailer.
 
no I am not forgetting SS it is that I don't have any desire to mention them and you are talking 2K price difference in amps too; good components cost more money.
I have a Mesa Big Block Titan V12 that will be buried with me but it is not the end all to bass rigs. and just because I own the top of the line bass amp Mesa engineering makes does not mean that I am too good to play through a sansamp DI'd to the house PA. sure I will tell a difference in my tone but the audience is going to give a shit less about something that I am more anal retentive about than they are. every amp manufacturer has its own trademark tone Mesa is no different but you are going to dig deep in your pockets to get that tone you want otherwise you will need to get some stomp boxes. for the most part that is what people do, they buy amps that are reliable and affordable and buy effects processors and still have not come close to what a Boutique amp head cost.

the whole point of the matter is that most people listening to you whether it be live or recorded is not going to be able to tell what kind of amp you are playing through nor do they really care. all they know is they know what they like and dispite how much you like the tone you are gettig out of your equipment of choice will not mean a thing if the paying audience is not buying your material.
oh and I did forget to mention that that mesa rig takes up a whole lot more room than a Behringer V-Amp Pro therefore that is why it stays in the trailer.
Dude. Markbass. 45lbs, 500w of power, an extra 25lbs gives me an extra driver or two. Boom without herniation and the best bass tone I've heard.
 
Dude. Markbass. 45lbs, 500w of power, an extra 25lbs gives me an extra driver or two. Boom without herniation and the best bass tone I've heard.

Dude. Behringer VAmp Pro, 3 pounds tops. played through the house PA at whatever thumpage the sound man wants me to have. As long as I can hear me and the rest of the band through the monitors is just fine by me and takes me 2 minutes to load in and load out. :D
 
word! i can run my V3 at a medium volume and it sounds fscking awesome. these amps also have a 100/50 watt switch that helps, but i don't believe you have to dime out a tube amp to get great tone out of it. it's all about passing the signal thru a good set of tubes, weather you drive them into breakup or not.

That's true for some folks in some situations, but there's a lot of variance both in amps and what one considers to be great tone. During my heavy distortion phase, I had an old 50w Marshall Plexi (which I sold WAY too cheap, but that's another sob story...) that I had to have every knob all the way up to get into the zone I was looking for, and I've got the tinnitus to prove it. Nowadays, however, I just love the clean, glassy sound of my old Strat through my '64 Deluxe Reverb with the volume on about 3 1/2 to 4.

Times change, tastes change, and DSFDF.
 
You guys who want to crank a 100w head on stage for a pub gig are nuts. My ears already ring any time I'm in a quiet room, and I can't get to sleep without background noise to distract me. It is nowhere near worth it for some monstrously loud cock-rock riffs.

That's the thing, man, I DON'T want to crank a 100 watt amp at a pub gig. I just want two channels and a clean solo boost or three channels, and a FX loop.

the whole point of the matter is that most people listening to you whether it be live or recorded is not going to be able to tell what kind of amp you are playing through nor do they really care. all they know is they know what they like and dispite how much you like the tone you are gettig out of your equipment of choice will not mean a thing if the paying audience is not buying your material.
oh and I did forget to mention that that mesa rig takes up a whole lot more room than a Behringer V-Amp Pro therefore that is why it stays in the trailer.

So, here's my question - you're right, I'm talking about an amp that costs botuique money. So, what if I was willing to pay botique money for a low wattage amp? What are my options? Again, Mesa is taking strides in this direction - I didn't like the Express series at all, but it exists, and the new Mark-V can be cut down pretty far between channel-assignable half-power modes and a pentode/triode master mode which further reduces wattage - I'll be very interested to play this amp.

As for the "the audience can't tell the difference" argument, that's crap. I can tell the diffrence when I'm playing, and I tend to play better with a tone that inspires me more. Additionally, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a Tech-21 fan - their Trademark-30 is the best practice amp I've ever played, and the Trademark 60 got me closer to SRV territory than most Fenders I've played. However, as much as I love the tones I've gotten from the Trademark 30 (and it's a fun little recording amp, for sure), the problem is the touch sensitivity just isn't right - it's missing some of the natural compression inherent in a good tube amp. So, with my Recto I can run my gain fairly low, keep a relatively clean lead sound (which I like), and rely on power-amp sponginess to keep everything even, meaning my pick attack is free to vary the "gain" of the notes but that unless I ease way up on the attack they'll still jump out of the speakers evenly. The Tech-21, however, has a much more linear response, where if the gain's low unless I hit pretty hard then the notes just die. So, in order to get a fluid lead sound, I have to run the gain higher. That means less articulation which means it cuts less well, which the audience WILL notice. They won't notice it as bad tone, per se, but the lead guitar will tend to blur with the rest of the instruments a bit more, and they'll be saying, "yeah, he was moving his hands awfully fast, but I couldn't really hear what's going on."

So, I'm going to play better through my rig because I'm more comfortable with the tone, and additionally even a high wattage tube amp will have a very different poweramp response than even the best solid state combo I've played (and really, I swear by that Tech-21 - it's one of the best solid state amps of any size I've ever played, and I crack up whenever I plug into it becayse it sounds way better than by rights it should), meaning I can't dial in the sort of tone I'm after, which means it won't sit in the mix the wya I want it to.

I mean, really man, the only arguments you just put forward are "well, of course, your amp costs botique money" and "the audience doesn't care." For one, I'm willing to pay botique money for something I like that can at least be switched to low wattage, and for another, "the audience doesn't care" is just changing the subject. I don't care what the audience thinks - they're not paying for the amp nor are they playing through it. I care what they think about my playing, sure, but not about my amp.
 
Drew we can go back and forth all day long and get no where. if you have the dough to throw at top of the line gear I am all in, send me one too:D
but I have limited financial resources so I am stuck with making what I have sound as good as possible and I think I have been pretty successful at it and I have reassurance of that from the people who come to hear us perform "You Rock"
where as I have heard comments from the croud about other bands "You Suck"
and they have much better equipment than we do so where do we go from here

if you are in the market fot High bucks Low watts amp I would suggest Vox. Bogner, Egnater to mention a few.
IMO what you already have is as good as it is going to get for I am a Mesa fan my self.:cool:
 
That's the thing, man, I DON'T want to crank a 100 watt amp at a pub gig. I just want two channels and a clean solo boost or three channels, and a FX loop.

Yeah, I get you. Aside from elaborate pedal boards there's not much you can do to get that sort of flexibility and even then it's not quite right.
 
Drew we can go back and forth all day long and get no where. if you have the dough to throw at top of the line gear I am all in, send me one too:D
but I have limited financial resources so I am stuck with making what I have sound as good as possible and I think I have been pretty successful at it and I have reassurance of that from the people who come to hear us perform "You Rock"
where as I have heard comments from the croud about other bands "You Suck"
and they have much better equipment than we do so where do we go from here

if you are in the market fot High bucks Low watts amp I would suggest Vox. Bogner, Egnater to mention a few.
IMO what you already have is as good as it is going to get for I am a Mesa fan my self.:cool:

Oh, I'll be the first to admit that the gear doesn't make the player, lol. And I wish I had the cash to just start buying random blokes on the net amps, dude, lol - sorry. :/
 
Yeah, I get you. Aside from elaborate pedal boards there's not much you can do to get that sort of flexibility and even then it's not quite right.

I'm just hoping that this is something that will change in the coming years.

I think, perversely, modeling amps were the best thing ever to happen to the tube industry. I think it's no coincidence that you didn't get things like the Mesa Road King (four channels, each with three preamp "modes" per channel, coupled with channel-assignable poweramps where you could specify tube or solid state recitification, 50 or 100 watts 6L6, 50 watts EL34, or 150 watts 6L6 AND EL34, coupled with channel assignable speaker outs such that you could switch between closed back or opened back cabs on the fly, and mul;tiple channel-assignable FX loops) until a few years after you got all-in-one boxes where you could select between 32 different amp models matched up with 16 different speaker cabinet models, such that you could take something that looked like a red kidney bean and get a whole room full of amplifier tones out of it.

At some point, it must have made the tube guys think, "wait a second, we're losing the versatility war here... What else can we do?" As far as I'm concerned that's good news - the Road King isn't even the only amp on the market anymore where you can assign one channel a 6L6 power section and another an EL34, though I don't know if Mesa's going to try to protect their patent on that one. Honestly, I almost hope they don't, for the sake of the further innovation that will drive.

Anyway, coming back from that tangent, clearly the other thing to come out of the modeling home recording revolution is that there IS a demand for low-powered tube amps. So far most of the market is being made with fairly stripped down offerings, but that's beginning to change (Engl Rebel, Mesa Express, even to a certain extent the new Mach V), so I'm hoping a couple years down the road there will be a lot of amps out there with at least the option of being switched down to, say, 10 watts class A.
 
That's true for some folks in some situations, but there's a lot of variance both in amps and what one considers to be great tone. During my heavy distortion phase, I had an old 50w Marshall Plexi (which I sold WAY too cheap, but that's another sob story...) that I had to have every knob all the way up to get into the zone I was looking for, and I've got the tinnitus to prove it. Nowadays, however, I just love the clean, glassy sound of my old Strat through my '64 Deluxe Reverb with the volume on about 3 1/2 to 4.

Times change, tastes change, and DSFDF.

you nailed it right there. we have folks here talking about what's "best" and there really is no such thing. ;)
 
Interesting thread. I'm still not convinced a Fender Deluxe Reverb or some other 25 watt amp is going to keep up with a drummer (and not some lightweight drummer either).

I got a kick out of reading about big amps, big butts, etc. Been there, lugged them up fire escapes, etc. That's why they had castors, eh?

Anyrate, you want full blown tube fantasy in a larger venue (1000+), little amps didn't do it for me back then, and don't nowadays either.

And these Marshall fantasies... the pic of the amp below, which I used two full stacks, will grind any Marshall into the dirt, not to mention just my little (remaining ) 1/2 stack.

However, that said, I use a Boss GT-8 straight into FOH and crank the floor wedges :D

Yeah...for small clubs, that beast was "problamatic"
 

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And these Marshall fantasies... the pic of the amp below, which I used two full stacks, will grind any Marshall into the dirt, not to mention just my little (remaining ) 1/2 stack.

However, that said, I use a Boss GT-8 straight into FOH and crank the floor wedges :D

Yeah...for small clubs, that beast was "problamatic"

LOL! That's the rig I hauled up the fire escape! Ampeg V4 half stack. Loved the sound, but MAN that head weighs a ton.

I'm doing the essentially the same thing you are now . . Vox Tonelab SE into the PA.
 
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I think the heads are in the 65lb range, if not mistaken.

But ya know...after all these tube amps thruout the years, I'm growing to like my gt-8 more and more. I wish I'd had one in my copy band in the 70's.

I really don't think the digital floor stompers sound as bad as people make them out to be. Granted, it took me a month to start getting REALLY good sounds out of it, and you couldn't do it solo... you had to "tweak" while playing with the band, but I think I can get my V4 sound without anyone knowing a difference.... plus SO much more. The Ampeg was a TWO trick pony... loud and loud :D
 
Interesting thread. I'm still not convinced a Fender Deluxe Reverb or some other 25 watt amp is going to keep up with a drummer (and not some lightweight drummer either).

Au contraire. Our drummer is no lightweight by any means, but if I turn my BFDR up over about 4, I'm too loud. The style of music makes a lot of difference, though; I don't see many headbangers playing through DR's.
 
Au contraire. Our drummer is no lightweight by any means, but if I turn my BFDR up over about 4, I'm too loud. The style of music makes a lot of difference, though; I don't see many headbangers playing through DR's.


Understood about genre. I sold my original bfdr back when and up traded for the showman, because when we did the high school proms, the gym swallowed the little combo amp. Great amp though. You've got a good one.

Also realize too, the singers where the only ones using the PA. hhhhmmm that says a lot there, eh?
 
that's like eating chicken soup with a knife.

didn't like the presets, right?

The tonelab aint no slouch, as is the X3 live or the GT-10/8. You gotta twiddle and have a goal to shoot for and not expect to just "land" on a good sound by picking numbers and adding chorus/delay.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt you've put one thru its' paces, but I have to think you didn't tweak enough. Amps are nice though. No arguments there.
 
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