Whay do I need pre's?

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Rudy2

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Um, here is a real newbie question so please don't laugh.

Why do I need mic pre-amps? And why do some input devices offer a full six or eight pres and others offer only two with the rest being balanced analog etc.?

The units I am considering are the Echo Layla 3G, see here:
http://www.proaudiotoys.com/store/product.aspx?prdId=163785
And the Behringer ADA 8000, see here:
http://www.zzounds.com/a--2676837/item--BEHADA8000

And while I am wondering, how important is having phantom power available with a unit of this type?

Please help enlighten me about pres and phantom power! Which of these two units seems more desireable? I will be doing mostly live recording of an acoustic folk group and intend to edit tracks later using my PC.

Rudy2
 
First off ....
The Layla is an interface whereas the ADA8000 is strictly an 8 channel Mic Pre that outputs via ADAT (you would need an interface, like the Layla, that has ADAT in to use it).

As far as the rest of your inquiry about phantom power, analog line level inputs and mic pre's .... I just don't have the inclination to explain all of this, other than mics need the signal increased to a usable level. Hence the required mic pre. An analog line level input is for devices that contain their own pre-amplification (keyboards, drum machines, outboard preamps ....etc). Phantom power is required for condenser mics.

-Edit- Also read through some of the links I posted in this thread
 
hmmm.......

I'm buying a new car....
it has this "engine" thingy..... but i can save a lot of money if I buy one without it. do you really think I will need one, or should i save money?
and which is better....Pinto, or Peterbilt?


come on folks....

do a little research and have at least an CLUE about what you are asking!

The Layla card is an interface that allows you to put audio into, and get audio out of your computer. It has TWO inputs, which have MIC pre's on them. It also has provisions for other formats, and for output from the computer.

The Behringer unit is an *8 Channel Mic Pre*. You can plug mics into it, but it does not interface to your computer (directly). You would have to go thru a soundcard (or device such as the Layla) to use it with the computer.

Studio microphones are usually "CONDENSOR" mics. These mics require power to operate. Power, is supplied by the Phantom power. So, if you are going to use ANY KIND of condensor mic, yes, you will need phantom power.

Mics put out a very very small signal. A mic pre pre-amplifies this signal into a line level signal, which is much larger, and is the signal source used by all other studio equipment. When you send a signal from your mixer board to an effects unit and back, it is sent line level. The signal from the mixer to the recorder or the amp is probably line level also.

There is a whole website infront of this BBS containing a wealth of information. You might want to go thru it.
 
Yo Rudy the Great:

Whay?

You can record without a mic pre. However, you will get MUCH better results with a quality mic pre.

Depends what your ears hear. LOUD? Well, we can all hear that.

Quality with sufficient volume? That's a choice you make and practice, practice, practice with mixes makes a good product.

Green Hornet :D :eek: :cool:
 
Rudy2 said:
...why do I need mic pre-amps?
Click to expand...

Microphones don't kick out much of signal. Pre-amps (pre amplifiers) kick up the signal strength.

From here it gets kind of crazy. There are pre-amps that color the signal, and there are pre-amps that don't. Those that don't are rarer and quite expensive. Then again, some that do color the signal are expensive too.

Rudy2 said:
...why do some input devices offer a full six or eight pres and others offer only two with the rest being balanced analog etc.?
Click to expand...

The manufactures (sp) are trying to be everything to everybody. Each pre is a recording channel. One channel per person. So six pres, you can record six people at the same time, etc.. The rest of the analog ins are for other devices. You could hand a pre in front of them for example, and run another mic in.

Rudy2 said:
And while I am wondering, how important is having phantom power available with a unit of this type?
Click to expand...
Depends on your mic. Some mics (condensor, Royer 122 ribbon) NEED phantom power, some mics (dynamics, most other ribbon), don't. In the case of older ribbon mics, phantom power would actually blow the mic, though it causes no harm to the vast majority in so far as I am aware.
 
Please look up the word "newbie."

radiorickm said:
come on folks.... do a little research and have at least an CLUE about what you are asking!
Click to expand...


Hey, I've got an idea, radiorickm! Why don't you go to a bulletin board clearly intended for "newbies," and post some sarcastic insulting responses to questions you deem to be beneath your infallible wisdom? Just think: you can massage your own ego while making someone else feel really stupid about not knowing everything and having the AUDACITY to ask a question! Imagine how powerful you'll feel, how utterly superior! Never mind that anyone reading your post will think you're a jerk--it's all part of the fun of being a pretentious snob!
 
Bianchi Joe said:
Hey, I've got an idea, radiorickm! Why don't you go to a bulletin board clearly intended for "newbies," and post some sarcastic insulting responses to questions you deem to be beneath your infallible wisdom? Just think: you can massage your own ego while making someone else feel really stupid about not knowing everything and having the AUDACITY to ask a question! Imagine how powerful you'll feel, how utterly superior! Never mind that anyone reading your post will think you're a jerk--it's all part of the fun of being a pretentious snob!
Click to expand...

Awesome post bro....
 
Hmm,

Don't worry, I thought it was sort of funny! My guess is that radiorickm forgot to take his meds today.

So I am thinkin' that for my use the Behringer might be the way to go. I actually have researched this topic a bit over the last four weeks so I am not as stupid as some "super geniuses" might assume. My requirements are for mostly mic inputs as my folk group does not have any instrument level needs at this point. Well, maybe my bass as it has a BassMax pickup on it. Anyway, a question here, can the Behringer handle instrument level inputs if needed?

And yes, I know the ADA800 needs an ADAT PCI. Which PCI is the question? I can get a cheap Alesis ADAT card on eBay but I am not sure how well (or if it will) handle editing software. I was thinking of using a $150 version of Calkwalk or something like that. My intent is to get going for cheap but not buy something I cannot use.

Did I say live recording? Yes, live, acoustic. With editing done later on my PC.

So that is what I am thinking. The Behringer ADA800, a PCI and some affordable recording and editing software. Plus cables and mics etc.

I would appreciate any considerate comments on what to do! Thanks.

Rudy2
 
The way I see it .... with what you have listed.
ADA8000 8 channel mic pre with ADAT out $230
Emu 1212M PCI Audio Interface $200
The Emu comes bundled with editing software. Read more .

Grand total = $430 ... not to bad for 12 inputs : 2 analog, 2 SPDIF and 8 ADAT

-Edit to add- Not sure if you would get a good enough signal for your bass by plugging straight into the ADA8000. You would do much better with a SansAmp Bass DI box to convert the signal to line level or simply mic the bass amp.
 
Yeah!

Now you are talkin' crankz1! That is what I was looking for. I already have a SansAmp DI and it is a very useful piece of gear. Sort of expensive but worthwhile. So will the Behringer take line signals (is that the correct term?) as well as mic ins if I/we decide to add instrument level signals at some later date? It looks like a really decent system for live music especially if mics are the usual input device. What exactly is the editing software that eMu offers with the 1212M? Thanks!

Rudy2
 
Hmm,

After looking at the Emu card a little closer it says something about only a "couple of channels". What I really want is all eight channels in so I can do editing individually. Is there another PCI that allows interface with the Behringer so that all eight tracks can be loaded onto the PC and edited?

Rudy2
 
No you are not understanding .... with the Emu and the ADA8000 you will have the 8 pre-amped channels via ADAT.
Plus you will have 2 analog inputs and 2 more digital inputs via SPDIF.
This will give you the capability of 12 simultaneous inputs.
 
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Rudy2 said:
Yeah!

Now you are talkin' crankz1! That is what I was looking for. I already have a SansAmp DI and it is a very useful piece of gear. Sort of expensive but worthwhile. So will the Behringer take line signals (is that the correct term?) as well as mic ins if I/we decide to add instrument level signals at some later date? It looks like a really decent system for live music especially if mics are the usual input device. What exactly is the editing software that eMu offers with the 1212M? Thanks!

Rudy2
Click to expand...

Not exactly sure what software comes bundled. You could pry contact them and find out.
Yes the ADA8000 will accept a line level input.
Also .... the "only a couple channels" is referring to the analog I/O of the Emu. All of the I/O can be used simultaneously or however you configure patch mix (the Emu control applet). The Emu gives you the ability to record 12 simultaneous tracks (provided you have the proper gear). With the Emu 1212M and the ADA8000 you will have 10 channels available to you. 12 if you get some form of gear that can utilize the SPDIF I/O.
 
Wow,

That sounds extremely powerful for a decent price. I do not know what SPDIF I/O means but I will check it out. How does the ADA8000 handle line level signals? Are adapters available to input these signals via XLR connections then?

Still learning. Thanks for the help.

Rudy2
 
Rudy2 said:
Wow,

That sounds extremely powerful for a decent price. I do not know what SPDIF I/O means but I will check it out. How does the ADA8000 handle line level signals? Are adapters available to input these signals via XLR connections then?

Still learning. Thanks for the help.

Rudy2
Click to expand...

Best thing to do would be to search with Google for information on SPDIF, or look at some of those links that I posted in the other thread for some good general info.
You can also download manuals for the ADA8000 and pry the Emu from their respective sites to get more info on their specifics. -Edit- You can get the ADA8000 manual from the Zzounds link. It's on the right of the page under Resources.
Google search is an invaluable tool at times.
 
Kind of going back to the original question:

Preamps are of MAJOR importance because the largest amount of GAIN will occur there... consequently this is the biggest opportunity for noise to creep in and audio frequencies to be lost, as well as 'coloration'.

Personally, ALL preamps color the signal to some extent. In fact, complete transparency is the last thing I personally want from any of my gear. I like stuff that has character and a sonic footprint.

Preamps are pretty important if you want to capture and accentuate the details of a signal. However, a analog/digital converter (or vise versa) is more important IMHO than preamps for overall audio quality.

If you have some nasty converters your digital recording is going to be glass ceilinged fast.
 
responce

rudy2

i have read all of your posts in this thread. When I look back at the initial post, I think many of us misinterpeted what it was you were asking.

And while I am wondering, how important is having phantom power available with a unit of this type?

Why do I need mic pre-amps?


Please help enlighten me about pres and phantom power! Which of these two units seems more desireable? I will be doing mostly live recording of an acoustic folk group and intend to edit tracks later using my PC.Rudy2


if you just read the post, i thought you were asking us to compare the two devices, and determine which ONE would be better for your use.

of course, they are two different devices that do two different things....

in reading your later posts, you asked a better question, and got a better answer.

Yes, i was being a smartass; Trying to make a point. But I also point out that I did take the time to explain the devices in my post.


As to Bianchi Joe; i am at a newbie forum.
 
Hey Rick,

If your recent post is supposed to be an apology then you should say so, clearly. I sense a big ego still throbbing and am not too awfully impressed with what you had to say. Yes, you had some good advice in your original post but that was sort of overshadowed by your opening statements. Others have been more open, kinder and more helpful. Hope you can find solution with whatever is bugging you. I know I sometimes fire off an email that I regret. Peace.

Rudy2
 
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