grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
That might be a blessing in disguise......For my part - my comment meant nothing more than I had never heard one of your songs
C
chuckduffy
Well-known member
That might be a blessing in disguise......
I wouldn't know - HAHAHAHA
rayc
retroreprobate
I didn't intend to call you out or anything Grim. It was a good story & I'd like to hear the core of it. I've noted there are a few biogs about these days that come with a CD to play what one reads about.
I bought a biog of Cassals, it intertwines with the bach cello suites so I had to get those to listen as I read - a lovely thing to do.
I bought a biog of Cassals, it intertwines with the bach cello suites so I had to get those to listen as I read - a lovely thing to do.
robgreen
no face
Interesting thread this - I too am always fascinated with the process of how people write/arrange songs and their inspiration behind them etc. As a teenager I was obsessive about how bands I liked created what they did - made the disappointment when their interviews were nothing more than drinking anecdotes or tourbus hilarity even greater.
My writing process is fairly similar to Heat's - pretty much every song I've written has grown out of a guitar idea, either a pattern/arpeggio/riff or whatever. I'll usually get that down in a rough form and if it's just a single pattern, I'll loop it trying to work out either another guitar line to play over it or a rough melody. When I've got a basic melody idea, I'll sing gibberish lyrics to get the meter and form - write down the gibberish and replace it with what I actually want to say.
Once I've got the basic template, I'll think about where else I can take it to make it more interesting. I never really play any song through on guitar at any point - I'm not very good at that traditional singer-songwriter thing and if someone just handed me a guitar and said play us a song, I would probably struggle.
My writing and recording process is generally very slow - I try and get sketches down when I think of them otherwise I forget and let them evolve over time into something more fully formed. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they just sit there as embryos that never go anywhere. It makes for a fairly frustrating way of working as I struggle to finish things and I've heard them all far too many times by the point I do, but I think it gives stuff a more organic evolution that I'm generally happier with.
Room Upstairs was the one song that didn't develop like that - I had a set of lyrics and I wrote the song around it. This was a much quicker way of doing things, but I've never managed it again since.
My writing process is fairly similar to Heat's - pretty much every song I've written has grown out of a guitar idea, either a pattern/arpeggio/riff or whatever. I'll usually get that down in a rough form and if it's just a single pattern, I'll loop it trying to work out either another guitar line to play over it or a rough melody. When I've got a basic melody idea, I'll sing gibberish lyrics to get the meter and form - write down the gibberish and replace it with what I actually want to say.
Once I've got the basic template, I'll think about where else I can take it to make it more interesting. I never really play any song through on guitar at any point - I'm not very good at that traditional singer-songwriter thing and if someone just handed me a guitar and said play us a song, I would probably struggle.
My writing and recording process is generally very slow - I try and get sketches down when I think of them otherwise I forget and let them evolve over time into something more fully formed. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they just sit there as embryos that never go anywhere. It makes for a fairly frustrating way of working as I struggle to finish things and I've heard them all far too many times by the point I do, but I think it gives stuff a more organic evolution that I'm generally happier with.
Room Upstairs was the one song that didn't develop like that - I had a set of lyrics and I wrote the song around it. This was a much quicker way of doing things, but I've never managed it again since.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Same here. I hate it when people see me with a guitar and assume I can just reel off anything. Sometime in the 90s, I used to go to this Chinese restaurant in Hendon central and one day, I made the mistake of going in there with my guitar slung over my shoulder. Well, the owner and his family were so excited and they said, oh, you must play us a song. I'd been dreading such a moment for years ! Anyway, I played them one of my esoteric creations {man, I sweated buckets} and after, the daughter said "can't you play 'Everything I do, I do it for you' by Bryan Adams ?". I was going to say that I only do my own stuff but I didn't. I told them that when I learned it, I'd come back and play it for them. I never went back there. {Well, once I did but I was with a large group and minus the guitar. I was hoping they wouldn't recognize me and ask if I'd learned that stupid song that I didn't even want to listen to, much less learn it and play it publically}. It was the only place in the universe that I've ever encountered crispy lamb and it was to kill for, it was so good.
That was last century. I noticed recently that it was no longer there.
heatmiser
mr. green christmas
Ha! Me too.
I really don't think I know any songs start to finish for guitar and vocals. I don't even think I could play one of my own tunes solo like that.
Too many years multitracking doing one thing at a time I guess. That, and almost no experience playing songs for people.
Chili
Site Moderator
Here's another one. At least I used to be like that. A few years back, I made it a point to write songs that I can play on an acoustic and sing just for that reason. So now if someone asks to hear one of my songs, I can play it.
I still can't get through an entire Eagles song. Maybe one or two Jimmy Buffet songs and a Van Morrison song, but that's about it.
MetroCenter
Pint o' Guinness, please.
How you start writing a song depends on what's most important (to you) for that song.
If you want a pop song, you need to start with the hook. If it's you and your acoustic guitar, then the lyrics or melody are a good place to start. If it's dance/rap, then start with the rhythm (drum/bass parts or maybe samples). If you're a storyteller, then structure the story.
There is no one-size-fits-all approach to songwriting, even within a genre. Some writers write all the lyrics first, then work the music around them. Others do the structural/chord change stuff first, then come up with a melody, followed by lyrics.
More important than the parts you write first, you need to decide: where do I want this song to take the listener? Into a dance trance? On an emotional journey? Are the emotions pretty constant, or is the singer/music getting more intense, or is there a switch/realization that takes place midway through the song?
Even more fundamental: who are the characters? Is the communication one-on-one (singer speaking to listener), or are the lyrics speaking in generalities like a disembodied "third-person"? Is the singer a character in the story? Is the listener a character in the story? Is it a hardened criminal speaking to a cop? Is it a man professing his love to his woman? Is a 22-year-old college student meeting his friends for drinks at the pub?
All of this gives you a point-of-view. It not only gives you a source for lyrics, but also the feel of the music that needs to be written. Both music and lyrics have to work together to make a story. It matters less what is written first, so long as they mesh together for a single unified effect.
To figure out what you want your recordings to sound like, choose some of your favorite songs as models. Then ask all of these questions when listening to your "model" music. The answers should give you a clue on how to approach writing your own songs.
If you want a pop song, you need to start with the hook. If it's you and your acoustic guitar, then the lyrics or melody are a good place to start. If it's dance/rap, then start with the rhythm (drum/bass parts or maybe samples). If you're a storyteller, then structure the story.
There is no one-size-fits-all approach to songwriting, even within a genre. Some writers write all the lyrics first, then work the music around them. Others do the structural/chord change stuff first, then come up with a melody, followed by lyrics.
More important than the parts you write first, you need to decide: where do I want this song to take the listener? Into a dance trance? On an emotional journey? Are the emotions pretty constant, or is the singer/music getting more intense, or is there a switch/realization that takes place midway through the song?
Even more fundamental: who are the characters? Is the communication one-on-one (singer speaking to listener), or are the lyrics speaking in generalities like a disembodied "third-person"? Is the singer a character in the story? Is the listener a character in the story? Is it a hardened criminal speaking to a cop? Is it a man professing his love to his woman? Is a 22-year-old college student meeting his friends for drinks at the pub?
All of this gives you a point-of-view. It not only gives you a source for lyrics, but also the feel of the music that needs to be written. Both music and lyrics have to work together to make a story. It matters less what is written first, so long as they mesh together for a single unified effect.
To figure out what you want your recordings to sound like, choose some of your favorite songs as models. Then ask all of these questions when listening to your "model" music. The answers should give you a clue on how to approach writing your own songs.
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MetroCenter
Pint o' Guinness, please.
One more thing. Every lyric and musical feature is important, of course. But like the first words of a book, the first words/music of a song are key to establishing characters, mood and direction.
Examples:
"Hey Jude, don't make it bad. Take a sad song and make it better."
Music: calm staying near tonic.
Interpretation: adult consoling a child.
- "Hey Jude", The Beatles
"Johnny's in the basement mixing up the medicine. I'm on the pavement thinking 'bout the government."
Music: rock with tension, dominant 7th.
Interpretation: person discussing or thinking about illicit activity.
- "Subterranean Homesick Blues", Bob Dylan
"Lazy old sun, what have you done to summertime? Hiding away behind all those misty thunder clouds?"
Music: bizarre chords and instrumentation.
Interpretation: depressed person daydreaming in sadness.
- "Lazy Old Sun", The Kinks
"There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold, and she's buying a stairway to heaven."
Music: mysterious echoey guitar and voice.
Interpretation: someone telling a story containing ancient wisdom.
- "Stairway To Heaven", Led Zeppelin
"Talk to me now I'm older, your friend told you 'cause I told her"
Music: fast driving music.
Interpretation: teenager talking to another teen.
- "12:51", The Strokes
"Elope with me Miss Private and we'll sail around the world. I will be your Ferdinand and you my wayward girl."
Music: folk guitar and mellow voice.
Interpretation: man singing to his girl, both educated.
- "Piazza, New York Catcher", Belle and Sebastian
Examples:
"Hey Jude, don't make it bad. Take a sad song and make it better."
Music: calm staying near tonic.
Interpretation: adult consoling a child.
- "Hey Jude", The Beatles
"Johnny's in the basement mixing up the medicine. I'm on the pavement thinking 'bout the government."
Music: rock with tension, dominant 7th.
Interpretation: person discussing or thinking about illicit activity.
- "Subterranean Homesick Blues", Bob Dylan
"Lazy old sun, what have you done to summertime? Hiding away behind all those misty thunder clouds?"
Music: bizarre chords and instrumentation.
Interpretation: depressed person daydreaming in sadness.
- "Lazy Old Sun", The Kinks
"There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold, and she's buying a stairway to heaven."
Music: mysterious echoey guitar and voice.
Interpretation: someone telling a story containing ancient wisdom.
- "Stairway To Heaven", Led Zeppelin
"Talk to me now I'm older, your friend told you 'cause I told her"
Music: fast driving music.
Interpretation: teenager talking to another teen.
- "12:51", The Strokes
"Elope with me Miss Private and we'll sail around the world. I will be your Ferdinand and you my wayward girl."
Music: folk guitar and mellow voice.
Interpretation: man singing to his girl, both educated.
- "Piazza, New York Catcher", Belle and Sebastian
robgreen
no face
Good to hear I'm in company on the singer-songwriter front. I guess that with modern multitracking and home recording setups, there's no reason why writing/recording and live playing have to really go hand in hand any more.
Multitracking always makes me think of that scene in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory where this huge machine pumps and whirrs away with huge amounts of energy going into it, before eventually popping out a single, tiny stick of chewing gum on the other side.
Multitracking always makes me think of that scene in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory where this huge machine pumps and whirrs away with huge amounts of energy going into it, before eventually popping out a single, tiny stick of chewing gum on the other side.
dainbramage
Well-known member
I usually wake up with a vague melody/rhythm in my head in the morning, sing it into a dictaphone before going to work and have the idea stored on an mp3 player. Then I keep listening to it at work and more ideas develop gradually. Once I get home I smoke a joint and record a simple version of the guitar and program MIDI drum patterns. Then I record a more thorough version of the guitar(s) and bass and reprogram the drums, add fills and stuff and finally record a sketch of the vocals. After that I smoke another joint and write the lyrics. This is when I write the song title, usually very spontaneous right before rendering. I then upload the recording to an mp3-player. Finally I await further inspiration to continue the song while listening to the sketch at work.