what's the weak link in my setup?

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Brainjuggler

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I've been trying to record for weeks now with no luck. Everything I do sounds ugly, if it works at all. I've got an old dynamic Radio Shack mic in front of my amp plugged into a little Behringer mixer which sends it to the mic input on my laptop running Audacity.
Thats:
Guitar - pedals - amp - mic - mixer - laptop (Audacity), for the visually adept

When I sing into the mic it sounds fine, Audacity picks it up and reproduces it pristinely. When I put it up to the amp it all goes south. The cleans are mushy, lacking all definition. With distortion the tone is harsh and nasty, like a Boss pedal into a solid state Marshall EQ'd by a 15 year old goth.
I think one issue is levels, they're too low on the "default" settings but if I crank them up very much they get gnarly.

Option B: I plug my guitar right into the mic input and use Audacity for basically ALL the tone. This works, but all that software emulation doesn't sound near as good as my snobby analog effects and real tube amp.

Am I missing an essential piece of gear, or does some link in the chain just kinda suck?
 
If you have your guitar amp cranked, you may be overloading your mic.

Try pulling the mic back 5 - 8 feet from the amp and do a test recording. If that sounds okay, you've found the problem. Don't worry about the tone or room noise; we're just trying to eliminate the distortion.

A lot of cheaper mics simply will not handle the high SPL's put out buy a guitar amp.
 
Also you need to get an audio interface - I'm surprised you get much (if any) usable volume plugging your guitar directly into your soundcard.
 
You need to either play with the mic placement more, or if your mic is incapable of giving you the guitar sounds you're after, you could go from the direct out of the amp into your mixer or soundcard so you could still have the amp tone rather than using Audacity's effects. That would look like guitar>pedals>amp>mixer/soundcard>computer.

To answer your first question about what your weak link is, you're entire setup could be greatly improved by upgrading Audacity to Reaper ($0), taking the mixer out of the signal chain and buying a cheap interface ($70-$150), and upgrading your mic to something of a higher quality ($50-$100). This could all be done for less than $150 if you bought used and found some good deals.
 
As a guess I would think the mic is the weak link. If it is just being overloaded, moving it back will reduce the amount it is being overloaded by and get rid of the distorting problem, but it will also change the sound; It will lack the tight bass response and have a lot more 'room' sound the further back you get. It will sound more distant, even if you turn the volume up in the mix, the tone will still sound distant. The best level for a guitar amp to be set in my experience is just the volume at which the speaker very slightly visibly moves, but not much. If that is too loud for your radio shack thing you might just need a tougher mic. If that sounds good to you to move it back, then go for it I guess but I personally like my amps mic'd nice and tight and close up. It will sound fuller too if you double mic it, maybe using the radio shack thing further back for some room, and a stronger mic up close for fullness.
 
Thank you all! :D

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what was said about levels being too low feels like the real problem. The preamp in the mixer just isn't good enough. Also the mic is suspect.

Mic placement is later. If I move the mic more than about a foot away from the amp then it hardly picks up anything (see levels issue above).

So I should start with a good mic preamp, like with a 12AX7 or something inside and if that doesn't do it start looking at better mics.

Yes/no?
 
Brainjuggler said:
Thank you all! :D

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what was said about levels being too low feels like the real problem. The preamp in the mixer just isn't good enough. Also the mic is suspect.

Mic placement is later. If I move the mic more than about a foot away from the amp then it hardly picks up anything (see levels issue above).

So I should start with a good mic preamp, like with a 12AX7 or something inside and if that doesn't do it start looking at better mics.

Yes/no?
Click to expand...

Sorry, man, but did you hit a nerve...:mad:

DEFINITELY DO NOT BUY A PREAMP, OR ANYTHING ELSE (other than a beer).

The issue I put forth is not mic placement, but the distance of your mic from your sound source, and the possibility that your mic cannot handle a loud sound source.

Now, for a little Troubleshooting 101...

You said that you can sing into your mic and it records fine.

THAT ELIMINATES THE POSSIBILITY OF ANY PROBLEM WITH YOUR SIGNAL CHAIN. It may not sound great, but it does work properly.

In my original post I suggested, Try pulling the mic back 5 - 8 feet from the amp and do a test recording. If that sounds okay, you've found the problem. Don't worry about the tone or room noise; we're just trying to eliminate the distortion.

Retrospectively, I should have also stated the obvious: for this test, you want to be using a "clean" guitar signal. No pedals; no amp distortion. Just a nice clean guitar signal.

Do the test again, and come back with the answer to only this one question: Did moving the mic farther away from the amp eliminate or greatly reduce the distortion?

It may be tinny sounding, it may not be very loud, but that is not what we're trying to fix at this point. The only thing we are concerned about now is distortion. Please try not to get ahead of yourself.

I was going to ask this a bit later, but if it will keep you away from 12AX7's, go ahead and tell us what kind of amp you are using and how loud you have it turned up.

Do the test, get the answer we're looking for, then get back to us...
 
Last edited:
Ok, sorry for getting ahead of myself. I ran some simple tests. When I sing with the mic in my hand or play clean with the mic a few feet away from the amp, I get a really low level, barely audible in playback. That's with all the mixer's knobs on zero. If a crank up the gain on the mixer the level goes up to usable volume but picks up a ton of static.

step 2?
 
The weak link is your monitoring. I see none listed. No matter what equipment you are using, you can't record what you can't hear.
 
Brainjuggler said:
Am I missing an essential piece of gear, or does some link in the chain just kinda suck?
Click to expand...

Difficult to say... you're using low end everything in your recording chain - Christmas is coming... ask Santa for a decent mic, audio interface and get Reaper and your life will be much better.... :drunk:
 
But for now, what sort of lead does your mic (what plugs on both ends) have and what is the exact nature of the socket of the mixer you have it plugged into?
 
Brainjuggler said:
Ok, sorry for getting ahead of myself. I ran some simple tests. When I sing with the mic in my hand or play clean with the mic a few feet away from the amp, I get a really low level, barely audible in playback. That's with all the mixer's knobs on zero. If a crank up the gain on the mixer the level goes up to usable volume but picks up a ton of static.

step 2?
Click to expand...

Ya know, stupid me, I completely missed the mixer when I read your first post...

The problem is that you are plugging a mixer into a MIC input on your computer.

Let me give you a little explanation...

(And for you heavy tech guys, this is a "quick and dirty" explanation; let's try and keep it that way, okay?)

Think first in terms of an amplifier as being a circuit instead of a big box with "Marshall" on it.

For various reasons, you wouldn't normally use a single amplifier circuit to raise the output of an electric guitar to the five zillion watts metal bands use on stage.

You will normally have a preamplifier that raises the level of the signal a little bit, then feeds it to another amplifier that raises the level even more. Sometimes you'll have several amplifier circuits that each raise the level of the signal that is output by the previous amplifier circuit.

Now I am going to just use some made up numbers to illustrate what I'm talking about. I'll use "volts", but my numbers will not be correct although they will illustrate the point.

So here's the example:
  • Guitar puts out up to one volt, which goes down the cable to the preamp.
  • Preamp expects a one volt input signal. It takes the one volt signal input to it and raises it to a ten volt output signal andd sends it to the final amplifier.
  • Final amplifier expects a ten volt input signal. It takes the en volt signal input to it and raises it to a 100 volt output signal andd sends it to a speaker.
Note that I keep mentioning that each amplifier circuit expects a signal of a specific voltage. Actually, what it expects is a signal of a certain minimum voltage and no more than a certain expected value.

Now, if you feed a signal to an amplifier circuit that is larger than the circuit expects, you get distortion. This is how a guitar amplifier is made to distort. The output of the first amplifier circuit is made to put out a signal larger than the designed input of the next amplifier circuit.

Now, to your problem...and again I'm using fake numbers.

Your guitar puts out one volt, You have it plugged into a mic input on your mixer. The mic input goes to a preamp, which raises the signal to ten volts. You are then taking the ten volts coming out of the mixer and feeding it to your computer's mic input, which is expecting only one volt.

Voila...instant distortion.

I owe a bunch of apologies here; please consider them given.

Now here are your options:

  • Skip the mixer, and feed the mic you are using to record your guitar directly into the mic connection on your computer. It won't sound great, but it will sound better than it does now.
  • As others have noted, buy a proper recording interface. Most interfaces have mic preamps built in, so you would put the mic in front of your amp, and plug the mic into one of the preamps on your interface.
Again, I owe a bunch of apologies here, and I will try to read a little more carefully before jumping on people...
 
No worries dude.

I must be the mic, cuz when I plug it into the soundcard or my old Tascam US-122 (antiqute USB interface) its still too quiet to work. So I guess I need a real mic, which is kinda what I expected.

Thank you all!
 
Just my opinion, but why not just get a auidio interface that has everything you need with it. Example a Line 6 toneport, I think they are around $100, everything you could need, mic input/guitar input, amp sims...everything.

You could get into something like that for the price of just a mic like a SM57.
 
Dave:
I was just looking at that. I had a Boss BR-8 back in the day, and now I regret selling it. I think that'd be the best way to go - an all in one box for everything.
 
I have used a Line 6 Toneport since day 1, like 5 years or so. I use it for everything. I even use it to run my mic for a live internet radio show.

The only thing I don't use it for is keys, I just plug a USB controller in seperate.
 
Brainjuggler said:
Thank you all! :D

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what was said about levels being too low feels like the real problem. The preamp in the mixer just isn't good enough. Also the mic is suspect.

Mic placement is later. If I move the mic more than about a foot away from the amp then it hardly picks up anything (see levels issue above).

So I should start with a good mic preamp, like with a 12AX7 or something inside and if that doesn't do it start looking at better mics.

Yes/no?
Click to expand...

No.

#1 priority - replace the PC soundcard and mixer with an audio interface designed for recording

#2 priority - replace the mic with an SM57

#3 - use the above, listen hard, and decide what's next if anything
 
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