Whats the difference between a Tube MP and an Avalon?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ScienceOne
  • Start date Start date
S

ScienceOne

New member
Electronically speaking. Take a budget pre (about $100) and a top end pre (those over $1000 units), compare the circuitry. Why is something like the BlueTube or the Tube MP so much cheaper? I heard that the gain isn't actually supplied by the tube, that its all solid state. I just want to know what to look for in a preamp, and what to do if I want to build my own high end pre. Thanks a million. Gordon
 
There's really no difference. From what I hear, the Avalon guys just stuck a tube MP inside a silver / champaign box, threw a bunch of buttons on it, and marketed it as an Avalon.

Seriously.

Or maybe that was an audio buddy. I forget.
 
Actually the marketing dudes at avalon have been successful at passing off a total piece of shit, by writing the word shinola on it.;)
 
Damn, you guys are bad today! I think what they meant was do a search on the Rack forum for keywords like:

starved plate
toob
tewb

What you understood about the tube not being part of gain section is essencially correct. I've heard the analogy of something like sticking a lightbulb in the signal path to add some desirable analog noise to smooth the overly square digital bits. The tube isn't biased with full operating voltage thus the "starved plate". Some manufacturers even stick a lightbulb behind the tube to make it look like it's glowing- silliness.

I'm sure some senior dudes will pop in and correct me if I'm wrong, or just give you some better details on the answers to your question.
 
That's pretty much it in a nut shell. There are good solid state devices (can you say Neve?) and there are bad ones. Same with tube devices (D.W.Fearn ain't too shaby). The faux tube stuff is generally solid stae with a starved tube looped off to the side to add "warmth"(read distortion:rolleyes: ). No matter if you're looking for a pre with lots of color or a straight wire with gain, ya have to get the tube thing out of your head and just use your ears
 
Yeah I understand. But forget the Avalon, pretend i mentioned one of the high-end tube pres. Whats the difference in the wiring? There has to be something that makes the really good ones several hundred dollars more than the cheap ones.
 
Oh, so you mean like: better circuit design (R&D aint free), higher tolerance components, better RF shielding, often class A instead of opamp ICs, often input transformers, and overall better built stuff...

Analogous question to what makes those Corvettes cost more than the Chevette?
 
Avalon is a high end pre. The difference is in everything from the design, components themselves to the quality control. The actual parts are not the greatest part of the expense. It's the other two.
 
Ok, but there isn't one huge thing? Like Class A operation, is that the big divider between a cheap pre and a quality pre? I know a class a pre COULD sound worse than some using op amps, but in general, if both were made as well as possible, will a Class A design (you mean a DC circuit all the way through, right?) always beat out the solid state op amp pres?
 
Science, there's what looks to be (haven't read it yet), an excellent new article on this at www.prosoundweb.com
If Harvey doesn't spot your question, he has a forum there too,
and he's very cool about answering questions like these.

Chris
 
I'm coming into this thread a little late, but I have both.

It's a completely different thing. There's just no way to compare the two.

TubeMP is a lo-fi, noisy, boomy, muddy and distorting piece of equipment as a micpre. There's nothing really musical about the 'color' it puts on the signal, except when I used it as a bass DI/effect a few times.

VT737SP is cleaner and bigger sounding and captures far more detail. You can put musically pleasing colors and textures utilizing its compressor and EQ. It's extremely configurable and very very very versatile. Even if you were to take just the micpre section, which isn't all that great, it's still far superior to anything you get out of TubeMP.

So there's really nothing in common between the two, or rather, between a TubeMP with any high end micpre. Except that you connect a mic to it -- oh, and there is that so called tube thing that both of them has inside, but that's another rant.

I don't know if this analogy makes sense, but it's like comparing a 10 speed bicycle and a 18 wheeler semi because they both have tires. A 10 speed carries a person relatively slowly and not for very far. A semi carries thousands of pounds for thousands of miles. They seem to share similar purpose it may seem, but the differences are obvious in areas of design, implementation, cost structure, profit margin, target market and most importantly, product intent.

Incidentally, I have opened up both and studied the internals closely. There is a huge difference in component selection, layout and construction at every detail. Power supply alone in VT737SP will easily cost more than a few TubeMP's.
 
Last edited:
Have to agree with tigerbomb on the sound quality of the MP usefull on some bass but not as a mic pre, from what I've read sofar the Studio Projects is one of the less expensive ones to get., Though I'd like to here of others too.
 
One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is features. My AD2022 has variable input impedence, infinitely variable output trim and adjustable high pass filter. It's silver sealed circuitry is highly resistant to transformer and radio frequency interference.-Richie
 
Yes, but i just want to know what the difference is in the schematic of a high end tube pre versus that of a low end one. Take away the highpass filter, polarity reverse, pad, everything but the gain knob and the tube. What is the difference between those two stripped down pres? Is there any difference on the schematic? Is it just all component QUALITY that makes the difference? I know I'm ignoring those high quality solid state pres, but let's take this a step at a time.
 
ScienceOne said:
Ok, but there isn't one huge thing? Like Class A operation, is that the big divider between a cheap pre and a quality pre?

Well, the real "divider," . . .

if there even is such a thing . . .

isn't necessarily in any one component or the build or whatever, but in the end result. Both are made to produce certain types of distortions, or harmonics. The biggest difference is in the types of harmonics each will tend to induce:

In other words, the cheap stuff will tend to produce the wrong kind of distortions . . . forgive me my ignorance on the matter, but I believe they are called "odd order" harmonics, while the good stuff generally tends to produce more of the even order kind.

I'm not going to get in to the specifics of how it all works, because it would likely take up a few chapter's worth of textbook info that I have neither the time nor the desire to research and type in a single thread . . .

. . . but just understand that there is a difference, and it has a cumulative effect over several tracks. The good kind will mix better, and generally work and play better with other tracks, while the bad kind will just kind of cloud matters up.



Now for the next biggest difference:

Consider audio toy A and audio toy B. Let's assume both use the same opamp and the same tube. Model A is mass-produced in such a manner that X amount of units have to pumped out in X amount of time at X cost in order to ship to Guitar Center on X date to sell at a very low cost for a small profit margin to schlups like us.

Obviously, to mass-produce this stuff, costs have to be watched as closely as possible -- therefore, the need to produce as many units as possible in a short timeframe take top priority, while quality control takes a back seat.

When it comes time to insert the opamp and tube in to audio toy A, the assembler grabs a tube and an opamp out of a bin, sticks them in there, and moves it along.

Audio toy B, on the other hand, is made with a different idea in mind. It has a much higher price point, and quality of the unit becomes the top priority, as opposed to kicking out as many units as possible. Their strategy is not to sell en masse.

Now when it comes to inserting the same model of opamp and tube in audio toy B, the assembler will first go through a very large batch of opamps and tubes, and run them through some tests. After testing is complete, toy B assembler throws out half of the opamps and 2/3 of the tubes, and only works with the ones that pass his/her rigorous standards.

Perhaps toy company A even has a deal to buy company B's rejects. :D

Given the two different manufacturing techniques, one would have to conclude that company B clearly uses the superior components, even though, technically, they're the same part number.

Case Study II: The Oktava MC012 :

One of the best deals in audio is the Oktava mc012 small diaphragm microphone. By taking a good, solid, design, and utilizing relatively god components, this Russion microphone manufacturer is somehow able to keep costs down. They achieve this by utilizing economies of scale : mass producing the units in such a manner as to keep the per-unit cost down . . . then shipping to the major audio outlets of the world -- the Guitar Centers, Sam Ash (I think), etc. etc. Moving them out a rapid pace by aggressive discounts and promotional pricing.

Another way they are able to keep costs so low is by skinping on quality control. In other words, stuff goes straight from the assembly line to the truck and to the Guitar Center with very minimal attempts to actually test the mics out to see if they even work or sound good. Subsequently, guys like you and I walk in to GC, and roll the dice on whether we get a good one or a crappy one. Cuz' the Guitar Center guys certainly ain't going to do it. :D They're too busy putzin' around pretending they're smart.

Now some guys have even found a way to make a living as sort of an outsourced Quality Control Center for Oktava. His name is Taylor Johnson, and he is the proprietor of the Sound Room. That is his job. He sells the same product, only he sorts out the good ones from the bad, marks them up, and sells you only the good ones.

On one last final note, it's interesting that you bring up Avalon, because they fall in to a rather unusual category -- they're kind of a tweener, in that they do sell their product at the major retailer, so they are close to being a mass producer . . . yet they still enjoy sort of "boutique" status at the same time. BLUE microphones are sort of the same way, and now Grace Design mic pres are starting to enter the same "tweener" category.
 
Last edited:
If you listen to them thats all you need to know....Myself I dont know whats in them{I dont know crap about design} all I know is when I listen to something either it works or it dosen't..And if your spendin' money be dam sure you listen IMHO. Your ears man..thats one thing you can count on...Everything else is bias and preference.. JMHO on price/audio and design




Don
 
ScienceOne said:
Ok, but there isn't one huge thing? Like Class A operation, is that the big divider between a cheap pre and a quality pre? I know a class a pre COULD sound worse than some using op amps, but in general, if both were made as well as possible, will a Class A design (you mean a DC circuit all the way through, right?) always beat out the solid state op amp pres?

No, there isn't one huge thing. A design is the whole package, not just one special feature like 'class A'.

No, class A operation does not mean DC circuit all the way. You seem to think class A means discrete design, but it just refers to a mode of operation of a transistor (or a tube) in a circuit. So you can have a class A biased opamp design, and you can have it AC coupled too. And class A is definitely not the divider between cheap and expensive pre.

What seems to separate 'better' from 'not as good' are things like lower noise level, lack of unwanted coloration and distortion (harmonic or IMD), extended range and fast transient response.

To make all these things happen, one has to not only employ better design and use components with better spec, but pay attention to things like power supply, circuit layout, grounding and mechancal construction and so on.

And since we are talking mass produced products, they are expected to operate in more or less a uniform and stable way under 'normal' condition. A micpre that goes into oscillation if you just look at it funny is useless. A micpre that picks up the slightest of RFI is useless. And there's very little point in a micpre that's noisy and buzzes like my Strat next to a neon sign. Even if they all excelled in other areas.

So you see, the reason higher end stuff costs more is because you have to pay for the whole package, and all these things simply cost money to build in.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top