What's more important...mic or preamp?

[dgatwood]

The difference between a budget pre & HQ pre is the deafening hiss when you hit the gain up a few notches.

That argument would have been pretty much a given ten years ago, but the difference between cheap pres today and cheap pres from the late 90s is like night and day. Some of the op amp ICs are really quite good these days even down in the $20-30 per channel end-user cost range.

 

[dualflip]

Id say the mic is more important, not to give the pre-amp less importance, but for example i think theres more difference in sound between choosing a dynamic Vs condenser depending for the job. But if i had to choose something not placed in the poll options id say mic placement & instrument quality (with a good musician of course) As a matter of fact i've heard 5 dll pre-amps that sound amazing, if you dont believe me check out this link http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=3062 but i havent heard 5dll mics that sound good

 

[tateros]

Some of the op amp ICs are really quite good these days even down in the $20-30 per channel end-user cost range.

$20-30 is fair to say, except for the part where you have to buy a 12 channel VLZ to achieve that cost.

 

[dgatwood]

$20-30 is fair to say, except for the part where you have to buy a 12 channel VLZ to achieve that cost.

Heh. Yeah, I've never seen inexpensive good stuff in mixers with under about six channels. You do have a point there.

 

[Fishmed]

Id say the mic is more important, not to give the pre-amp less importance, but for example i think theres more difference in sound between choosing a dynamic Vs condenser depending for the job. But if i had to choose something not placed in the poll options id say mic placement & instrument quality (with a good musician of course) As a matter of fact i've heard 5 dll pre-amps that sound amazing, if you dont believe me check out this link http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=3062 but i havent heard 5dll mics that sound good

From your link you are correct, if you are ONLY using ONE track, the mic is more important than the mic pre.

The REAL test is when you record multiple tracks, that is when you can truly appreciate a good quality mic pre. Until you have the opportunity to use a nice mic pre for a length of time, THEN go back to the poor quality mic pre is going to be the real eye opener to understanding the difference.

 

[dualflip]

From your link you are correct, if you are ONLY using ONE track, the mic is more important than the mic pre.

The REAL test is when you record multiple tracks, that is when you can truly appreciate a good quality mic pre. Until you have the opportunity to use a nice mic pre for a length of time, THEN go back to the poor quality mic pre is going to be the real eye opener to understanding the difference.

I think good pre's are important, but once again following you logic, its more important the mic when you have multiple tracks. Cheap mics VS Expensive/good mics makes more of a difference, for instance if you use a dynamic mic as overhead it will sound entirely different than if you use a condenser, if its an el cheapo dynamic the difference will be greater, i think that only this difference will have more effect on a drum-kit than if you use good or bad pre-amps and all the drum-kit tracks.

 

[heroics321]

Wait... what microphone and what preamp are we talking about? I dig a 57 on most snares through an API, but I'm not too fond of that combo on lead vocals. So many things come into play, involving both items.

If you look at how the recorded matterial is effected by various components, it allows you to prioritize. First is the instrument and the player. Next is the recording space. Together with the instrument, the sound here will determine a majority of the final product. The microphone is the one piece of equipment that will translate the sound waves into electromagnetic energy. Everything that happens between the microphone and the listener's speakers is merely modifying this signal, for better or worse.

The capsule's properties: matterial size, thickness, density, along with the microphone's circuitry, all greatly determine how sound energy is transformed into electromagnetic energy. These days, most decent preamps will not have an exponentially greater effect on the signal than what is going on in those first instances of a mic picking up and outputting the signal. I'm kinda glossing over things like the effect a mic pre's input impedance has on mics, especially those of the moving coil variety. I don't want to get too long winded.

So, in closing... my order of importance for tracking goes:
Instrument/player, environment (close second), converters, and finally pres.

That's not to say preamps aren't important... they are, but it sounds like some of yall been hangin out 'round the Gear Slutz board for way too long. And for Christ's sake, it's got nothing to do with the price of a microphone or pre! It's about quality and implementation, sheesh.

 

[dualflip]

So, in closing... my order of importance for tracking goes:
Instrument/player, environment (close second), converters, and finally pres.

So where does the mic fit in your recording chain?

 

[heroics321]

That's why I don't like to type up long posts after work I place the microphone between the environment and the converters on that list.

 

[hairylarry]

another take

Hi,

First off all my equipment is budget. Including my pres. I have two DMP2s which are sonically equivalent to the DMP3s and the Omni-Studios if I understand correctly.

DMP3s are $150 for two channels new. Used they are $130. DMP2s aren't much cheaper if you can ever find one. Omni-studios can be had around $100 used.

Still take the DMP3 as an example. That's $75 per channel. Studio projects cost more. Rane cost more. So tell me where I can get a high quality budget pre for $20. I sure can't find it.

Comparing the DMP2 pre with the pres on a cheap mixer board or even the pres on my Fostex VF160 XLR in channels I can hear a substantial difference on acoustic guitar. Whatever mic I use. And the DMP2 pres are so much better than the pres on the little Yamaha mixer board I had that I sold the mixer. I mean what's the good of having it if you're never going to want to plug a mic into it?

On vocals the difference between the Fostex pres and the DMP2 pres is not as pronounced. But on acoustic guitar the difference is pronounced. Especially with regard to high end detail. And this is what makes a nuanced guitar part shine.

So the way I look at it $75 per channel is the bottom end for pres. Others will have to tell you how much better $500 per channel or $5000 per channel will sound. I can't afford them which is why I'm on the homerecording bbs.

Mics however are an entirely different story. I am sure that $5000 mics are better than $100 mics but good mics are available in any price range. Especially if you do your research and are willing to buy used.

Good dynamic omnis can be bought for $15. Good condenser omnis can be bought for $25. I know omnis don't get no respect but they really are the starting point. Every aspiring engineer should start with a pair of omnis and learn from there. I started with two EV 635s. Excellent microphones in production for over 50 years. I rarely use mine any more because I prefer my EV PL9 and my Realistic 1070 series omnis. For acoustic guitar I also love my Naiant msh-1stereo pair. Still gallop by on a fast mule and you might not hear the difference between any of them. I would say the Naiants have the best high end detail and the lowest SPL. The dynamics are essentially equivalent except the 635s and their sibling the RE50s have an attenuated frequency response.

The point here isn't to compare omnis but to note that I've just mentioned 5 mics that are truly great mics and all under $50 some I bought as low as $15.

So yes using a good mic is important. Very important. Using an expensive mic, not so much.

Looking at my mic inventory I can see that I have 73 microphones listed. (Ok. I'm a collector and I have a problem getting rid of anything) Two of those 73 cost me over $100, my AT4054 and my Peavey 520i. Most cost under $50. Some free. Some I've had so long I forget but those are all under $50. The ones I use most were $30 a pair.

All of these mics sound noticeably better when going through the DMP2 preamp.

So besides a lot of aimless rambling about my obsession I'm trying to make a point here. Which is.

Good preamps and good mics are both important. But the cheapest preamp I can find that I would call good is $75 a channel. And the cheapest mics that I call good are considerably less.

So expensive preamps and expensive mics are not important. But better to put a little bit of money into some preamps and get by on good but cheap maybe even used mics than to even think about cheap, meaning under $75, preamps.

In a different budget range, like most professional studios have, I have no opinion. I've never owned any of that expensive stuff. I can appreciate why they want it but not having it has never stopped me from making good recordings.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[dualflip]

Hi,

First off all my equipment is budget. Including my pres. I have two DMP2s which are sonically equivalent to the DMP3s and the Omni-Studios if I understand correctly.

DMP3s are $150 for two channels new. Used they are $130. DMP2s aren't much cheaper if you can ever find one. Omni-studios can be had around $100 used.

Still take the DMP3 as an example. That's $75 per channel. Studio projects cost more. Rane cost more. So tell me where I can get a high quality budget pre for $20. I sure can't find it.

Comparing the DMP2 pre with the pres on a cheap mixer board or even the pres on my Fostex VF160 XLR in channels I can hear a substantial difference on acoustic guitar. Whatever mic I use. And the DMP2 pres are so much better than the pres on the little Yamaha mixer board I had that I sold the mixer. I mean what's the good of having it if you're never going to want to plug a mic into it?

On vocals the difference between the Fostex pres and the DMP2 pres is not as pronounced. But on acoustic guitar the difference is pronounced. Especially with regard to high end detail. And this is what makes a nuanced guitar part shine.

So the way I look at it $75 per channel is the bottom end for pres. Others will have to tell you how much better $500 per channel or $5000 per channel will sound. I can't afford them which is why I'm on the homerecording bbs.

Mics however are an entirely different story. I am sure that $5000 mics are better than $100 mics but good mics are available in any price range. Especially if you do your research and are willing to buy used.

Good dynamic omnis can be bought for $15. Good condenser omnis can be bought for $25. I know omnis don't get no respect but they really are the starting point. Every aspiring engineer should start with a pair of omnis and learn from there. I started with two EV 635s. Excellent microphones in production for over 50 years. I rarely use mine any more because I prefer my EV PL9 and my Realistic 1070 series omnis. For acoustic guitar I also love my Naiant msh-1stereo pair. Still gallop by on a fast mule and you might not hear the difference between any of them. I would say the Naiants have the best high end detail and the lowest SPL. The dynamics are essentially equivalent except the 635s and their sibling the RE50s have an attenuated frequency response.

The point here isn't to compare omnis but to note that I've just mentioned 5 mics that are truly great mics and all under $50 some I bought as low as $15.

So yes using a good mic is important. Very important. Using an expensive mic, not so much.

Looking at my mic inventory I can see that I have 73 microphones listed. (Ok. I'm a collector and I have a problem getting rid of anything) Two of those 73 cost me over $100, my AT4054 and my Peavey 520i. Most cost under $50. Some free. Some I've had so long I forget but those are all under $50. The ones I use most were $30 a pair.

All of these mics sound noticeably better when going through the DMP2 preamp.

So besides a lot of aimless rambling about my obsession I'm trying to make a point here. Which is.

Good preamps and good mics are both important. But the cheapest preamp I can find that I would call good is $75 a channel. And the cheapest mics that I call good are considerably less.

So expensive preamps and expensive mics are not important. But better to put a little bit of money into some preamps and get by on good but cheap maybe even used mics than to even think about cheap, meaning under $75, preamps.

In a different budget range, like most professional studios have, I have no opinion. I've never owned any of that expensive stuff. I can appreciate why they want it but not having it has never stopped me from making good recordings.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

Again i think the mic is more important, you are basically talking about price ranges on mics or pre's, but you are not seeing the basic point, you said you note a difference when you record you acoustic guitar with your two different pres, i know there is a difference, but now, try recording the same guitar with a dynamic mic and then record it with a condenser (regardless of price, etc..) now tell me if there is more difference between your two pres and same mic, or two mics and same pre... the point is, mic selection will have a huge impact on the final sound, the pres will also have an impact, but not so dramatic compared to mic selection...

 

[hairylarry]

clarification

Again i think the mic is more important, you are basically talking about price ranges on mics or pre's, but you are not seeing the basic point, you said you note a difference when you record you acoustic guitar with your two different pres, i know there is a difference, but now, try recording the same guitar with a dynamic mic and then record it with a condenser (regardless of price, etc..) now tell me if there is more difference between your two pres and same mic, or two mics and same pre... the point is, mic selection will have a huge impact on the final sound, the pres will also have an impact, but not so dramatic compared to mic selection...

dualflip,

First of all I was not responding to you or any particular post. My post was titled another take.

Second I did not say the preamp was more important. I think they are both important.

Third the fact that different mics sound different does not make one better than another or make the mic more important. It's just a fact of life that mics sound different. That's why engineers choose different mics for different tasks.

Fourth the idea that all condensers sound different than all dynamics is only true in that any two mics will be at least slightly different. I think the difference between dynamic omnis and dynamic cardiods can be more pronounced than the difference between dynamics and condensers. If you are trying to say that condensers are always better than dynamics that is certainly not true. In other words I'm really not getting your point here.

Finally I will try to clarify the point of my post which evidently was muddled by my ramblings.

A cheap or not so good preamp will certainly hurt your recordings. It is my opinion that you will have to pay at least $75 per channel to get a usable preamp at least for recording instruments that like acoustic guitar rely on high end detail to carry nuance.

A not good mic will also hurt your recordings but this is entirely different than a cheap mic. Good mics can be found in any price range. This does not mean every cheap mic will be good. Just that some of them are. For example the Naiant omni condensers are excellent mics and also inexpensive.

As far as the argument that the mic is more important than the preamp or the preamp is more important than the mic I think both are nonsensical. As pointed out in previous posts the entire recording chain is important as well as the instrument, the room, and most importantly the performance.

So I guess I was trying to reduce the question to budgetary decisions. Instead of addressing the abstract issue of which is more important I was trying to advise someone with a limited budget where to put the bucks. At least $75 per channel for your preamps. Mics can be had cheaper with careful selection and you certainly are not required to spend much over $100 for a mic that will make excellent recordings.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

 

[dualflip]

Third the fact that different mics sound different does not make one better than another or make the mic more important. It's just a fact of life that mics sound different. That's why engineers choose different mics for different tasks.

Fourth the idea that all condensers sound different than all dynamics is only true in that any two mics will be at least slightly different. I think the difference between dynamic omnis and dynamic cardiods can be more pronounced than the difference between dynamics and condensers. If you are trying to say that condensers are always better than dynamics that is certainly not true. In other words I'm really not getting your point here.

I never said that condensers sound better than dynamics, if you read my entire post, you should have notice that i said that mic selection makes more difference than pre-amp selection, thats why i mentioned the example of your guitar, which bring us again to your third point. This thread is titled "whats more important mic or preamp" if you werent talking about whats more important mic or pre-amp, the go create your own thread called "another take" and post whatever you want...

 

[MichaelJoly]

What's more important - mic or preamp?

The microphone - by far.

The microphone, in addition to being an electronic environment, is a complex multi-chambered acoustic environment. It grafts measurable time and frequency domain artifacts onto source signals that far exceed the colorations of preamplifiers.

We love microphones for their euphonic artifacts. But preamplifiers are judged first by their ability to provide flat response, linear gain and accurate impulse response. Then again, we love some preamps for their imperfections - which in most cases are immeasurable.

Acoustic artifacts in microphones (reflections, standing waves, diffraction, filtering etc), similar to those in larger spaces like recording environments, dwarf the minor artifacts found in preamplifiers and are far more significant in shaping a recording's sound than a preamp.

 

[Innovations]

I have always felt that no preamp can create something that the mic didn't pick up in the first place.

Ergo the most important element in the signal chain is....the musician.

 

[Fishmed]

I have always felt that no preamp can create something that the mic didn't pick up in the first place.

Ergo the most important element in the signal chain is....the musician.

That is always the given; without talented musicians, you are just in the turd polishing business.

 

[MichaelJoly]

So lets say you have talented musicians, a good song and arrangement, favorable acoustics - all other variable are out of the picture including mic placement.

What then is more important - the mic or the preamp?

 

[Supercreep]

Which is more important - the hammer or the nail?

Either is useless without the other.

 

[Fishmed]

Which is more important - the hammer or the nail?

Either is useless without the other.

That is easy, the hammer... I will use it on the screw instead.


This is always a chicken & egg debate, and boils down to a personal preference. If either piece of gear is total crap, it is a moot point. Once you have reasonable gear, ligitamate arguements can be made on either side.

 

[MichaelJoly]

Just trying to play along with and maybe expand on the original poster's 8 month old (but perennial) question and not side step it - what's more important: the mic or the preamp?

So lets say in addition to meeting all the qualifications I laid out above AND the gear is good (and yes of course both are nessessary) what influences results more - mic or pre and why?

I have a strong belief the mic is far more important for the reasons I noted above plus the fact the mic operates in three-dimensional acoustic space and is subject to complex standing wave behavior and other reflection and diffraction effects.