what this forum's good for Pt. 2

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dobro

dobro

Well-known member
Tonight I went to a buddy's house and listened to his new sound system. He paid a lot of money for it and it's pretty good. Rotel amps and players and Paradigm speakers. Anyway, I took along my recent CD (I posted lots of mp3s here from that CD and got lots of feedback). The sound on my album is okay, but the levels are a bit off. What I found listening to it on his ace system was that the vocals were too loud. Nothing too out of line - maybe 1.0 to 1.5 dB - but it was a consistent fault on just about every song. Now, virtually nobody here clocked that, so I want to say three things.
First, I'm not complaining. Nobody's got an obligation to listen really closely enough times to spot that stuff. Second, I get feedback about mixes here that is really valuable to me. Finally, I think you can't count on this forum to spot stuff you've fluffed. Again, I'm not complaining - I'm trying to understand how this place works so I can have a good time with it - but I think this place often isn't so much an mp3 clinic as an mp3 radio station.
 
On his system, your vocals seemed too loud. Could be anything from your recording to the acoustics of his room.

The point of the clinic is to get your shit played on as many different systems as possible to get a happy medium so that nobody is straining to hear anything on any system.

Keep in mind that so much of this is subjective anyway...I seriously doubt that there's anybody besides you who can say that your vocal was 1-1.5db too loud. It just was at your buddy's house, lol.
 
Well dobro, it just so happens I got dsl again, so I can now start offering "real" advice on your mixes. :D

I agree. Sometimes I hear REALLY bad mixes on here and everybody makes comments about how "great" it sounds. That doesn't help. There is a big difference between liking the song and liking the production of it. Even if a guy can't give a "technical" reason why they don't like a mix, giving the comment is still valid.

Ed
 
Yeah, you're right Dobro...that what I was thinking in the Verlegen thread: I asked for suggestions on the drum sound, got a lot of good responses (which is flattering) but almost no suggestions on how to improve the drum sound.

I find it hard to give mix ideas myself though, I mostly 'just noodle around'. Can't hear exactly what's wrong - frequency, volume-wise - until it's in my hands...after I run some eq's and compressors over it (Hey, I even did that a couple of times, sending semi masters to some people using PM. Perhaps I should do it more 'out in the open')

Anyway, you're right...I'm off to eat diner now (excuse for any grammar/spelling mistakes, I've typed rather hastily)
 
Chris - yeah, but it wasn't just my friend's room that made the vocals sound loud. We listened to loads of commercial (and some amateur stuff as well) afterward, and the commercial stuff didn't suffer from the same problem. The amateur stuff suffered from the same problem (or the opposite problem - the vocals weren't loud enough sometimes).

You need five guys to comment on your mix here: one to talk about levels, another to talk about EQ, another to deal with verb and FX, a fourth to talk about the actual *sound* of the elements in your mix, and the last one to compare your mix to commercial stuff.
 
Yeah, but I'd argue you can do the same thing with commercial mixes. I was listening to 'Crazy Train' last night, b/c my daughter shocked me by telling me she'd never heard it. I couldn't BELIEVE how hot the vocals are on that track, and I've probably listened to it 300 times in my life. And I promise you, if you came into this clinic with that ozzy chorus on your vocals, you'd get stomped, lmao.

I think the clinic is good at catching obvious stuff that you've become immune to hearing (like a low vocal). If the level of an instrument is obnoxious, then I think it'll get caught. But there is such a HUGE difference even among commercial recordings as to how loudly to mix a vocal, you can't expect for the clinic to dial that in for you. I think you have to listen on your monitors first, then in your car, then on an old boom-box, etc.

The other thing the clinic's notoriously weak on is bass. I've had some stuff come through here that "passed", but that I later discovered to have some seriously out of control subsonic-bass problems.
 
I'll tell you what this forum's good for. Making me nervous as a little bitch. I'm very close to posting the first two songs I ever mixed vocals on, and on one of them I'M the SINGER. Nobody's ever heard me sing and I'm going to lay it all out to get blasted. Oh well. At least I don't actually know you guys. The other song will be easier because chrisharris did the vocals, I'm just mixing them. Oh yeah, the forum is also good for getting me discouraged because I'll never do what some of these guys do. Sometimes it's good for a laugh. Sometimes it's good for a cringe. But it's always good for a listen.
 
chrisharris said:
Yeah, but I'd argue you can do the same thing with commercial mixes. I was listening to 'Crazy Train' last night, b/c my daughter shocked me by telling me she'd never heard it. I couldn't BELIEVE how hot the vocals are on that track, and I've probably listened to it 300 times in my life. And I promise you, if you came into this clinic with that ozzy chorus on your vocals, you'd get stomped, lmao.
Click to expand...

My question is: are those hot recorded vocals in Crazy Train 'wrong'? Isn't it something you can get used to (like you did, Chris)? I believe there are a gazillion ways to mix music (well), it all comes down on personal taste and knowledge about the style of music you're producing. It depends on the listener also. Even when you're satisfied, there will always be people who aren't. It doesn't mean you're wrong. (of course it works the other way around also). The standards upon which I make and mix my own music cannot be applied to other kinds of music. If it's americana (like Chris uses to make), my standards are lost. Because I hardly know any americana. Perhaps it's common to mix the vocals quite loud in americana music, how would I know?

Anyway, I tend to get used to other kinds of mixes quite easily. I take music the way it's presented and I trust the best intentions of the artist. In your case, Dobro, my only reference point was 'Andy Partridge demos'....yep, I said 'demos'.....so that's why I didn't bother to listen that closely to the volume of the vocals. It sounded OK in my ears, like what I was used to...

I must admit: the open mind of this board is really nice, but it doesn't help you much with mixing problems. Although it's fun to get reviews by someone who only listens to death metal, I don't take his comments too seriously I must tell you. Replace my fat kick for a clicketyclick one? Forget it! :D
 
I am actually learning how to mix in this forum...

When I first found this web-site...I knew nothing about recording....
I still have a lot to learn....

I also realized what equipment I needed to buy....and not to buy.....

It has been an invaluable resource to me....
 
Just thought of something, Dobro...if all of the boardmembers were present in your buddy's house, how many of us would agree with you on the vocals being too loud? Perhaps a few, perhaps no one, but I can't believe it would be all of us....I even think the numbers would be exactly like on this board.
 
I'll say it again; there should be another room for people who are looking for comments other than mixing ones.
The songwriters room would be perfect if you're looking for comments on the song itself, but nobody ever posts in there.
I've gotten some useful, non-mixing comments (mostly from you Dobro:)) but the comment I get most is; "your bass sounds muddy" One of the best comments I got on the song itself (at least I think it was about the song) was; "wtf?"

Blah, blah, whatever.

from chrisharris:
And I promise you, if you came into this clinic with that ozzy chorus on your vocals, you'd get stomped, lmao.

that's funny!
 
dobro said:
What I found listening to it on his ace system was that the vocals were too loud. Nothing too out of line - maybe 1.0 to 1.5 dB - but it was a consistent fault on just about every song. Now, virtually nobody here clocked that,
Click to expand...



I'm almost positive I mentioned your vocals being too loud on at least one occasion...
 
Dobro, I know I've mentioned this before...

The best person to have listen to your mixes is YOURSELF after at least a 2-4 week break!

I think that the vocals in your tunes are mixed fine, especially given that I like the way your voice sounds...I don't have any complaints about the levels. Now I have complained several times abot flat notes that are flat enough to make me wince.

Maybe you're also just subjectively sorting through comments too?

I can relate...when get excessive positive comments it kind of makes them less meaningful. And when I get a negative comment I'm often too quick to think "well you just don't understand what I'm going for."

Slackmaster 2000
 
Im curious to know how you are comparing vocal levels on your stuff to commercial stuff......what commercial artist out there has a similar enuff style to yours to compare levels....many different styles each has their own "acceptable" places to put the vocal, from buried to way out front.....so theres no way you can say absolutely your vocals are mixed too loud......i dont think they are....i think they are mixed perfectly in Dobro style.....:)

to answer the question as to what this forum is good for, ill answer that you are gonna get opinions from the common folk, not some A&R guys opinion which is solely based on commercial appeal and marketability, and not the integrity of the song.....

now, what comes with having the "common folk" (i love quoting myself) critique your work comes varying levels of knowledge and expertise......maybe 8 out of 10 are gonna say, "hey it rocks, dont change a thing".....but conseider thats about all some are capable of from a technical standpoint...instead of blowing it off as useless info, take it as a compliment that someone took the time to download your song, listen, and type a response that they dug your stuff....that is invaluable......

and remember the other 2 of the 10 like the mixmkr's out there with the golden ears that are gonna really pick up the things that some of us didnt.....its not that some heard what was wrong and was too nice to point it out.....its some just dont have the trained ears to pick it out......

hopefully all of these responses help you realize that the mp3 clinic is more than a radio station......



MIKE
 
Dobro,

Most of your stuff that I have heard involves precise arrangements with mainly acoustic and vocals. This seems like a tougher mix to me with everything out front. There is bound to be a differing balance on systems without pro gear and knowledge.
I would have an extremely difficult time with your stuff since there is little or no room for play. (translation- I could never make it sound good)


The feedback here is plentiful, but not always specific. Alot of people request thoughts on the mix, AND the market value of a tune. We all are listening on such a variety of systems, then you add in the subjective part and..........well, you know what I mean.
A big benefit of this clinic is feedback that sharpens peoples writing/arrangement ability along with mixing skills.

I get alot from listening to others tunes, and mulling the tips and feedback people give. There is always something to learn from.

jcmm
 
And don't forget.....this is an MP3 clinic which , of course, means we listen to MP3s.
Now I know there are those who think that a high bit-rate Mp3 sounds pretty much like a cda but they do not. I can clearly hear the difference and the encoding process and the VBR stuff do alter the spectral response and so also alter the relative volumes of instruments (or vocals) in different frquencies.
So the vocals could have sounded right in mp3 form but not on a full resolution system. I actually mix things differently to try and compensate for what I hear MP3s doing to my mixes. The final mix that I archive is rarely the one that gets posted here.

Lastly.....this discussion has been held before and there's no way to come to a decision as to what the clinic is or isn't because it's different things to different people. Post if you like....listen and critque if you wish.....gush and fawn over a piece of music or tear it to little pieces if you think it deserves it. They're all valid responses and read the ones that seem useful and ignore the others. If it seems pointless....then don't post........it's a gathering place for musicians.
I will point out things I don't like but I have a wide range of acceptability as to what I think something should sound like. Others have a very narrow definition of what is acceptable. It's all good! :)
 
DimChandeliers said:
I'll say it again; there should be another room for people who are looking for comments other than mixing ones.
Click to expand...

i tend to agree with this comment.....particularly with the post amounts way up........non-frequented posts can be pushed into the second page within a day's time, and sometimes those are the posts that could use the mixing advise the most....

i guess the reason i say this though, is because that's how i view what " i " need from this board....thus a fairly selfish view of what i'd like to see........for instance, i think the only two songs that i've never posted remixes based on helpful critiques were for the two challanges.....all other songs i post, i post because i feel as if they need mix help and i constructively take in what i can do.....and act upon it

it is not uncommon to see a post w/ plenty of comments, and no remix or acknowledgment of changes made....to me, this begs the question of why it was posted here.......to other's it doesn't

in short, i'd like to see a split into two forums as well......

one as a "that's a catchy song.....i recorded this w/ my boys back in '78.......a&r.....i would like to hear a bridge here......can i be in the chris harris fan club too?" forum

the other as a "that snare sounds like a trash can......your vocals are too pitchy....try eq'ing here....your bass tone sucks......did you record that acoustic DI?........what's a better way to mix the backup vox?" forum

i think everyone could more effectively get what they're after if this happened........
unfortunately, this will never happen.....so i'll be content w/ what we've got:D
 
I have posted tunes in the songwriting forum in the past.....

because I didn't record or mix them....I wrote them....

there is a difference...ya know?
 
Sorry...I no longer have any idea what I meant by that. Just got back from a Cinco De Mayo party. No Margaritas though....whiskey and ginger ale. And Fajitas. mmmmmmmm.....

Cheers! :)
 
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