what this clinic's good at

[dobro]

What this clinic's really good at is spotting obvious weaknesses - the stuff the person who made the music has missed because he/she's been listening to it so much. This is really, really valuable. On a song I put up here recently, more than one person said 'ditch the highhat', and by doing that, it opened up all sorts of stuff for me - I replaced the hh with something else entirely, and then that got me listening to the bass more carefully, and I retracked the bass part, and then it occurred to me I might double the bass part usefully on the bridge, and so on. Now it's a better song, and all thanks to the nudge I got here in the clinic.

Now, what this clinic's not so good at. I think there are a lot of 'first impressions' posted here. In other words, I think a lot of people don't listen to a song more than once sometimes. And even if people let a song loop while they're writing their post like I do, that's often not more than 2-4 listens, and it's all at one sitting. I doubt that many people listen on more than one occasion to a lot of the stuff posted here. So that's what this poll's for - to survey the listening patterns of people here.

I've got another question, but I think I'll let it wait for now.

 

[Kramer]

I probably have 100 songs or more downloaded from the clinic.....it could be a lot higher.I'll have to count. If I like somebodys song I usually end up downloading every song they have on their website for download....I have folders and CD's full of tunes from the clinic.

 

[mixmkr]

the quality of the song determines if I will listen to it again...or even click it off after 10 seconds. I think first impressions are fine to give, and potentially the most important.

It is rare I will go back and listen to a song after I have had "my listens". There have been a couple, but only because I downloaded them, and they were sitting on my desktop, and I wanted something to listen too, while surfing other sites. I usually stream everything, unless that option is not available, which sometimes seems to happen at nowhereradio.

In all honesty, TO ME, there are yet to be the "wonders and jaw dropping" shit that makes me want to listen to it many, many times present in the clinic. But there is PLENTY of good stuff, that keeps flowing thru here, to keep things fresh. ...almost too much, many times. I prefer hearing new stuff over repeated listens... kinda like watching movies.

But, having said that, there have been a couple of people's stuff that I wanted to d/l their stuff and pop it on a CD, but I have yet to get around to that yet....with the exception of Jmarcoumb...and then he sends me a mp3.com CD!!

 

[Jagular]

Hey I'm new here and I aleady have one CD burned of various folks here to listen to for my own enjoyment. In fact I was jamming in the car just this evening on the way home from work.

There is a lot of great talent here. In spite of any nits I may have (which aren't many because I'm not really good at this mixing stuff yet) it still doesn't take away from the enjoyment of a tune. I don't save all of them to listen to later, but that's just personal taste, not necessarily a comment on the talent or production. I would say most people here produce a lot better sounding stuff than I have so I mostly just lie low .

 

[A1A2]

I am one of those who listens to people's mp3s once mostly. My excuses are:

1) It isn't my type of music
2) **The mix is too good for me to find any problem**
3) This forum acts like my radio.

However, it's an honor when you know someone listens to your stuff more than once though...they either dig your tunes or really are trying to help

Good post, we all should be nicer
AL

 

[participant]

I recently made a point of burning a SLuiCe CD and a samicide CD because I've found that repeat listens are what reveal the best songs. There are songs I hear on this clinic and instantly love (those songs by "stuckatwork", for example)... but I get tired of them quickly.

Real quality music only seems to reveal itself upon several listens. I've listened to Foo Fighter's new disc about 80 times now, and the songs I like best now weren't the ones I liked best to begin with.

Applying that to the clinic, my reason for burning the two discs was to reveal what songs might be kicking my ass without me knowing it yet (if that makes sense)

So far, on SLuiCe's disk, my favorite is "Twenty" (after about 12 listens).

On Sam's, it's probably the one that starts "letting it slip thru your hands... why pretend?"


c

 

[crawdad]

Man, it just depends. I've downloaded some SluiCe and Erland stuff to CD. I've listened to Many Years From Now about 100 times. Its one of my favorite songs from here or anywhere--both the original and the B. Sabbath produced versions. I really like some of ChrisHarris's songs--but he sent me a CD so I can listen when I want to. There are other songs I listen to once and others twice or three times if I want to give proper feedback.

The other thing is that some people want mix advice and some people are into posting the songs, so I go by that.

Since I can't seem to find any new music that excites me in stores, I am going to start downloading more tunes from here and make comp CD's.

Oh--and this clinic IS great for getting feedback on mixes and songs. Its inspired and helped me a lot.

 

[kjam22]

There are a few that I've burned and I listen to. The problem with most here (ESPECIALLY ME!!) is being vocally challenged. I learned a long time ago.... you can have a so so band with a really good vocal.... and people will listen all night. But you can have really good band with a not good singer and the place will empty pretty quick. It's just a fact of life. Me... I can't sing and I know it. I can empty a place in about 2 songs. So I just have fun with it.

There are some really really good singers on this site. But there are a lot more that aren't.

Just my opinion... for whatever that's worth.

 

[kjam22]

Hey Crawdad..... I'd spend lots and lots of money to have your voice.

 

[erichenryus]

the feedback that i've gotten here is invaluable to me. i only post like one song a year but when i do i get a lot of real short feedback that's like 'i like the song' or 'i don't like the bass line' and that's fine but i guess the comments that are first impressions are pretty cool in a lot of ways. it's like someone's pointing out a piece of meat in your teeth. that's very valuable to me.

then there's the feedback that's very detailed, describing the difficulty with the stereo image or some overbearing frequencies. that stuff is priceless.

i too have a disc of stuff from this site that i listen to regularly cause i rarely buy cd's these days. there's just nothing as interesting in the stores as what i hear here.

i don't get to download that much anymore since my employer blocks mp3's and i can't listen while i work but, i'm getting DSL very soon so i expect to be checking out a lot more stuff when that arrives.

dobro, i've said this before but that song you wrote called 'mineral' i consider a rare and precious gem that i found on this site and that was worth the time i've spent here alone.......i don't work for dobro.

 

[dobro]

Thanks erichenryus, that's really encouraging.

Okay, it's obvious that my impression of people's listening habits here was way wrong, and I've taken that on.

Now, let me raise another aspect of this. So, people listen to stuff posted here lots of times, but I don't think anybody has ever contacted me and said something like: "Hey I've listened to this a dozen different times, and I've noticed something I didn't clock at first - I think you should do something with that bass line." In the example I gave above about some extremely useful comments that I followed up and (I think) improved on, it was also true that people missed some stuff on that same song:

1 The bass line needed redoing. It was played legato, and it needed to be played more staccato.

2 There was a synth sound that opened the song and that continued throughout the song. I didn't know until last week I could change the intonation of the sound. The song I posted was in E, and the synth sound happened to be tuned to C, chugging along happily in the wrong key. Nobody noticed it.

Now, I never would have noticed this stuff if some people hadn't drawn my attention to the high hat, which created a whole chain reaction of things I noticed and changes I made in the end, and so I'm grateful and indebted for that.

So, where's this going? Well, co-producing I think. I don't think I'm ready to take on co-mastering, but I would esteem co-producing with someone whose work I like. Something along the lines of: I'll listen to your song ten times on at least three different occasions on at least two different sound systems and tell you what I'm hearing, if you do the same for me.

People can't afford to pay others for this stuff, but somebody might be willing to trade listenings. Whatcha think?

 

[crawdad]

Dobro--You mentioned co-producing and thats exactly what I was after with my "You Are The Producer" thread. I got a lot of really interesting ideas and I plan to incorporate those into a final version of the song. Obviously, I can't follow everything that was suggested, but looking over the ideas, I found a number of things that I liked or that were echoed by several people. I figured it would be fun to post something raw and see what others thought it should become instead of trying to show the world that I am a one man wrecking crew in the studio. After years of doing this stuff, I know that my own vision is myopic, that two heads are better than one and that if you run something by 20 people, you'll get a pretty good picture of what you have, based on the recurring opinions.

I also have no problem with seeking advice and criticism, so I can dive into this project and push my own ego aside in favor of using the input of others.

Long story short--I think co-producing is a great idea. I don't care who you are, having another opinion or idea is a strength and does not show a weakness of your own creativity. I think the Beatles + George Martin proved that theory quite well!

 

[SLuiCe]

The thing I am constantly reminded of is to take every response with a grain of salt. And I think this is especially true if you generally "color outside the lines." People come from different musical backgrounds, and while there are always some starting points, there is no right or wrong way to do music. Some times you may have done something in a mix because you simply had to in order to keep all the other ideas together, like glue. But not everybody is going to loop your song 20 times, enough to realize that your complex mix may be hinging on the very thing they want you to change. When I get reactionary, I usually blow it.

When I listen here, if the recording is done by someone new to the art, it usually takes just one or two listens to give them more advice (or just suggestions and opinions) than they can take in one sitting. Better quality jobs, demand more nitpicking. If I ever recorded something worthy of major labels I would still probably be posting here to see what I've missed...which is usually a lot.

 

[dtb]

I just come here to score. most of you have said it all. You don't need my 2 cents. It would be redundant.

 

[Guernica]

Hey Guys,
Great post and replies. I come to this place for 2 reasons.
1, Ive really come to like the folks in here, and enjoy what everybody has to say. And 2, because the advice i have received, and the stuff ive taken away from other peoples work has made me better at this little hobby that i enjoy so much.
I agree, that first impressions are as valid as mult. listens, ....first impressions draw you in, multiple listens keep you coming back.

Real quality music only seems to reveal itself upon several listens. I've listened to Foo Fighter's new disc about 80 times now, and the songs I like best now weren't the ones I liked best to begin with.

...that is IMO the definition of a great CD

....I admit though, that i worry about folks taking what i say in a way i dont mean. This has gotten me thinking about the way i use stars. As ive said before, I have always made it a point to be as honest and honorable with them as i could. I give them based on the level that the person is at, and entirely on a comparison with "their" other work. ...and of course, this is totally only my opinion. It never really bothered me til my last submission got pelted w/ 5's. Honestly, that was not as good as other work ive put up.... But folks in here, being the cool peeps they are returned them, ....and i kinda question the motive...
I truly appreciate any honest criticism... ...and, I promise to return the favor. ...no offense taken, and none ever intended. That's how we grow.

.....im ranting.

G (Mike)

 

[Slackmaster2K]

If it's a good recording, I'll often listen to the song once, and then let it loop while I respond. If the recording is bad or I just can't stand the song, I'll usually just write as I listen the first time.

I think first impressions are the most important. If somebody is annoyed the first time around, chances are you won't get them to listen enough times for your ideas to really come through. If they love it at first but discover a few quirks later, I think they'll be more forgiving and let em slide.

An example would be Emeric's Sunday Part 16 (fading). I listened to that song about 30 times the first time I discovered it. I still listen to that song several times per week...in fact I'm listening to it right now. It has that special something and I recognized it almost immediately. Now, after repeated listens I have found a few little things to be nitpicky about that I didn't hear at first.... the piano sounds a little fakey, the noises at the beginning and end are too much, the timing is a little off (which he told me but I couldn't hear at first)....etc. BUT, I don't CARE. I love the song and the recording is good enough that it doesn't get in the way...that's all that matters.

The problem with listening to your own music is that you project what you want to hear on it. The best thing to do is to just put it away for a while and come back to it. When Ed and a few others told me that the low end was too much on my last effort, I at first thought "nah, they just don't know what I'm going for"....but I decided to wait a couple weeks and listen again, and holy smokes, they were right...what was I thinking? The resulting mix has maybe a little less character, but a less ANNOYING character. It is important that you don't change something until you can hear why it needs to be changed I think...otherwise you don't really learn anything.

If you want to know how I usually listen to your material, Dobro, I usually play it 5 times or so before commenting. I usually enjoy your vocals and song structures enough that I want to listen for a while and not worry about trying to be a critic. During this period if something annoys me it's what I'll really try to tell you....like the bass sound in a couple tunes, it was really just too inorganic, and bothered me. Then on the last listen I'll listen critically to the mix and maybe say this or that could be a little better. After I post, I often go back and listen to 3 or 4 of your other tunes.

Slackmaster 2000

 

[TripleM]

I come here for several reasons. I want my stuff reviewed, so I offer reviews myself because that keeps the whole process working. I also believe that reviewing others work helps tune your critical ear so you become better at reviewing your own stuff (however there's a limit on how far that will take you).

I don't have a lot of favorites here. The few that I do consider favorites are not the ones commonly mentioned by others. Even though the focus is on mix quality, I pay a lot of attention to writing. I think a lot of people would rather play and record than write and it sometimes shows. I think a song should say something. It doesn't need to be "Bridge Over Troubled Water" - it can say something completely innocuous and worthless (see "Food Court Manager"). But it needs to be coherent. Sometimes I wonder if people even know what it is they're trying to say.

So I don't treat the board as my radio. I treat it as a place to have fun, learn, and correspond with a bunch of really cool people. And record a song that sells 10 million copies.

Enough rambling, just shut up Trip.

 

[powderfinger]

I come here for several reasons. I want my stuff reviewed, so I offer reviews myself because that keeps the whole process working. I also believe that reviewing others work helps tune your critical ear so you become better at reviewing your own stuff (however there's a limit on how far that will take you).

I would agree with the above statement. Initially I reviewed stuff so that I could get feedback. Some people seem to put stuff up, take feedback, but never change anything. Feedback for me, however, is a vital part of my process. On my last effort, I had something like 7 posted remixes...and the effort put in towards addressing you guys' feedback definitely showed. In other words, I know you guys help me....thus, I try and help you....when I can.

That being said, over time, I have become a fan of some people on the boards music. Those are the ones that I'll occasionally go back and listen to. I haven't taken it as far as burning CDs or anything, but I do give repeated listenings to some stuff.

 

[twist]

I would love to listen thoughtfully to every song posted in the clinic and then give constructive criticism, but there aren't enough hours in the day. This board occupies a big chunk of my day, yet I feel like I contribute very little. But I have learned tons and tons from our combined experience.

So, as for first impressions, yes they are important because if I feel I can't contribute something positive to the thread either with encouragement or suggestions, I'm on to the next thread.
The stuff I really like, or is just unique or otherwise interesting, I download. I've burned my favorites to CD. Like others have said, there just isn't that much on mainstream radio that's truly interesting. It's partly a sign of the times, like during the disco era, there just wasn't much else happening. At least here I can hear some fresh ideas.


Twist

 

[chrisharris]

If I ever post a second opinion in a thread, it's usually because I burnt a CD and hit the tune in the car. Monitors are great, but there's still something about the quick A/B in the car that can't be duplicated in my house.

As far as the "Production Plus" idea goes, I have some people here who have helped me like that, and I'll name some names...LOL. Sluice probably had to listen to 12 versions of "Old Yeller," and it got better b/c of it; Guernica has helped me out on more than one occasion, and so hasCrawdad, and Participant...mixmkr too. Sometimes they volunteer, sometimes they get drafted. Poor Jamal has to listen to the "alpha" version of every song I've ever posted, LOL. A lot of people give great feedback on the first listen (Alibish, Lt. Bob, Stratomaster, TripleM...I'm leaving people out, but you know who you are...LOL. I'm not as good as any of these people at giving feedback that's actually useful, so I usually don't unless I hear something that's blatantly "off" to me.

I have no illusions about why my posts get a lot of feedback, and IT AIN'T the "sonic brilliance" or even b/c people LIKE my songs... I listen to a lot of tunes, so I get a lot of feedback...Period. The more you give, the more you get...Just like real life, LOL. Then, over a period of time, you figure out who has the (1) talent; and (2) generosity of spirit to go the extra mile to help you out more. THAT'S what this place is good for.

And I've made a couple of friends here that I'll have for years even if the internet breaks tomorrow, LOL. yeah, that's a good thing.