What rack gear for saxophone?

[dave2sax]

Specifically, for alto sax.

What I currently have:

Mics:
Shure SM98 (clip-on miniature electret condenser microphone
with a unidirectional cardioid pickup pattern) for gigging.
Audix D2 dynamic mic for home recording.

Rack:
Rane 1/2 space FMI-14 mic pre w/3-ch partial parametric eq.
Lexicon 1/2 space LXP-5 reverb/effects
dbx 160XT compressor

The good:

Thanks to the mid eq parametric with a "Q" setting on the Rane, I'm able to get a fairly natural sound out of the horn. Without a "Q" setting or midrange eq, the sound sucks - I need midrange eq badly for the alto sax. The Lexicon is fine, just a touch of reverb is all I need. The dbx compressor I don't think I really need, but it's there if I do, I'll prolly sell it. This rig gets me close to the sound I want if I dial out all the top range 4k+ with the mid eq, it's trustworthy and reliable, fairly compact and paid for. I just think I can get an even better sound with more eq options, a better pre and mic.

The bad:

I'm not sold on the quality of the mic pre on the Rane. I've tried a few different mics, including a nice CAD high-end model, and they all pretty much sound the same to me - my Radio Shack $10 mic sounds the same as my Shure condenser. For home recording the Audix mic is okay, but really I can't tell any difference between either the Shure or the Audix, pretty much the same. I'm willing to upgrade my mic to a nice $100-$200 condenser.

The eq on the Rane is much better than none at all, but I'd like to have fully parametric and adjustable Q in at least 3 ranges. I'd like a better eq, willing to spend $100-$200.

Compressor?? I dunno...I might not even miss it if I didn't have one at all.

What I 've looked at so far:

Everything has to fit in a 2-space rack (or smaller), so keep that in mind. One cool idea was the Joe Meek ThreeQ. If I got that and liked it, it would be great 'cause all I'd need would be the Lexicon - just two half-rack units and I'd have it all. But, the eq on the Meek is lacking. If the Meek had a fully parametric eq with adjustable Q I'd be all over it, but because it doesn't I don't think the sound would be as good as what I already have. Still...it's tempting, my whole rack would just be two half-rack units, which would be ideal for gigging. It would be a cool little setup.

Symetrix 528e, Presonus Studio Channel, ART Pro channel or other similar priced channel strips. The ART would be a problem because it takes up 2 spaces, no room for my Lexicon. I really like the Symetrix 528e - I could see that working. I do like the idea of one box routing all the signal.

or....some other mix and match configuration like a Studio Projects VTB-1 mic pre and a Presonus EQ3B.

As far as mic's go, I'm open to suggestions.

The ugly:

The biggest challenge I face is getting a natural alto sax sound on a recording. Without eq and the right mic and mic pre - it just sounds really nasal, just horrible midrange and not "saxophone" like at all - nothing like my acoustic sound. I've tried the mic in many places, the best one seems to be 6-8" above the bell of the horn, pointing at my left hand, upper body of the sax. I guess people call what I need adding warmth, so does that mean I need a tube mic pre?

I know what I want, just not the best way to get there. At this point, I'm thinking the Symetrix 528e would do it all and be simplest solution, gives me good eq, compressor if I want it, and get a nice mic to go with it and I'm in business. I just don't know though if the mic pre in the 528e is better than what I already got in the Rane. Whaddya think?

Remember...alto sax, 2-space rack, natural sound, fully parametric eq, decent mic, and please....I'm a home recording amateur, so any one piece of gear that is gonna cost more than $500 max is out of the question. Realistically my budget is more like $200-$400 total for eq+pre, an $150 for a new mic. I want the new mic and mic pre to make a noticable difference, and I want a fully parametric eq with adustable Q on all 3 bands.

Thanks for any help!

 

[pohaku]

I'll have to think about the EQ and the pre given your budget, but I wouldn't use a condenser for your horn. I'd suggest either an RE-20 or a ribbon mic. A used RE-20 would run you about $280-300 and is a very standard horn mic. One of the better ribbons for sax is the AEA R-84 (which is what I use), but it's way out of your price range. Maybe one of the more recent Chinese ribbons (maybe a Fathead) would work well and be affordable. Maybe someone else on the Board can comment specifically about using a Fathead or other Chinese ribbon for horns.

 

[dave2sax]

I'll have to think about the EQ and the pre given your budget, but I wouldn't use a condenser for your horn. I'd suggest either an RE-20 or a ribbon mic. A used RE-20 would run you about $280-300 and is a very standard horn mic. One of the better ribbons for sax is the AEA R-84 (which is what I use), but it's way out of your price range. Maybe one of the more recent Chinese ribbons (maybe a Fathead) would work well and be affordable. Maybe someone else on the Board can comment specifically about using a Fathead or other Chinese ribbon for horns.

Thanks for the quick reply. If I sell my dbx comp, maybe I can afford a bit more mic like the RE-20. But again, without a good pre it won't matter. I remember about 8 years ago I had a Sennheiser 421 and I a/b'd it with my $10 Radio Shack through the Rane pre and honestly, I could not tell any difference at all. I returned the 421. Now, I have a bit more cash to spend on mic and mic pre...kinda wish I still had the 421...live and learn.

 

[tmix]

I wish I knew what to tell you.
In the band I play in we have a sax player (tenor/alto/soprano) and I have recorded him numerous times with a RNP/RNC pre combo using either a Dynamic mic (EV 308 the eggshaped ones held in a cradle) or a Kel Audio condensor HM-1 usually a condensor is too harsh for the soprano.

Maybe if you post your location, there might be a member there with a ton of gear you could experiment with. I know if you were in the Dallas / Fort Worth area you could try out any of my stuff.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I've been playing sax for 45 years now and gigging 5-7 nights a week for around 40 years so I have some thoughts.

My favorite mic for live is a dynamic and specifically an EV N/D70. They don't make 'em anymore but the newer N/D is ok too ..... model MIGHT be the 747 though I'm not positive.
For recording .... I personally prefer a condenser because I can put it back away from the horn maybe 18 inches or so and it picks up the entire sound coming from the entire horn.
I don't have a big budget so out of the budget mics I have I like the V67 a lot.

As far as EQ goes ..... I find that ALL sax sound a bit bright and nasally .... the reason is partly because the sound of a sax radiates from the entire horn ..... it doesn't just come out of the bell like everyone assumes.
The only notes that really come out of the bell are the 4 or 5 lowest notes.
So miking the bell, which you simply have to do live, doesn't get a good full tone.
For live ..... I virtually always take whatever the EQ ends up being for a typical vocal mic and cut the highs by about 9-12db.
I do a smaller cut for recording but I always attenuate the highs.
I have no opinion on the pre-amp situation ...... others will pop in and know a lot more about that.
BUT ...... if the mic captures that sound ..... then that's more how you sound than you realize.
It's really not possible to actually know what your sax sounds like acoustically because you get an awful lot of what you're hearing from the vibrations of the mouthpiece being conducted up the bone of your jaw and into your ears that way.
So when you play ..... you get all kinds of sound that's not actually radiating into the room. You actually 'hear' the horn a lot thru simply bone conducting the sound to you.
That's why I can play in a loud band and still hear fine even without monitors. That and I play loud as shit but bone conduction is the biggest thing you're dealing with here.
The sax never sounds to anyone else or a mic the same as it sounds to you.

 

[pohaku]

For recording .... I personally prefer a condenser because I can put it back away from the horn maybe 18 inches or so and it picks up the entire sound coming from the entire horn.

Actually, that's why the AEA R-84 ribbon works real well with horns. It is not intended for close micing. You actually want it out 12-18" from your source.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Actually, that's why the AEA R-84 ribbon works real well with horns. It is not intended for close micing. You actually want it out 12-18" from your source.

I've definitely heard good things about ribbons.
Seems like some studios I've done session work in may have used ribbons. I actually never pay much attention as long as they get a sound I like.

 

[dave2sax]

Thanks for the info. At this point, I'm considering the Fat Head ribbon mic after doing some research - I think it may give me the biggest bang for the buck in terms of warming up the sound.

As far as gear goes, still confused about whether or not to go with separate mic pre's and eq's, or go for an all in one unit like the Symetrix 528e.

In any case, I think I have to get the Joe Meek 3Q just to try it out regardless. If the Meek works good enough for gigging, then I'll make a custom box to carry just two half-rack units, now that would be too cool !!!

Trouble is I have one day to decide - tomorrow is Black Friday mega sale and I can get any of this stuff at significant discounts.

 

[pohaku]

Given how much you want to spend, I think you will have a difficult time finding anything of reasonable quality if you want to get a separate pre and EQ. Only a couple units come to mind for decent inexpensive parametric EQs - and both are discontinued and can only be found used - the DBX 242 and the Symetrix SX201. The Symetrix is a half rack unit and goes for @ $50 or so. The DBX is a 1U rack and goes for @ $150 or so. I own both and they are decent, although not exceptional by any means. The next step up from the 242 is probably a Speck Electronics ASC, but now we are talking $565 new or so. And we haven't even started on a preamp. Maybe others can suggest other PEQs that fit your requirements.

Realistically, given your budget, a channel strip may be the best bet. I personally like Symetrix gear. I've owned a bunch of it and sold some of it off as I've upgraded. Built like tanks. An SX202 preamp and a SX201 EQ (both half rack) would make a decent pre and EQ pair (both are long discontinued and only available used) - but if you can find a 528 for a decent price, you might as well start there. I've never used the Joe Meek stuff, but others on this Board have spoken well of it.

Good luck!

 

[iqi616]

I agree with Bob, he raises excellent points. I use the EV N/D 257 B dynamic. For live I have it a few inches above the bell but pointed at my left hand to even out the response.

Recording is a different matter, I tried an LDC but it just picks out all the wrong parts of the sound. I use the EV but I'm saving for a ribbon mic. For placement I have the mic up at mouth level about 3 feet away and pointing down to my left hand. This gets me the best balance in a dry room. The best thing is to find a great sounding room because that smooths out the response of the instrument. Even so, a fair amount of careful midrange EQ is required.

Pohaku's suggestion is best - a better channel strip than the Rane to give you a decent preamp and swept-mid EQ in one box.