What is this?

[mgray]

I'm not getting a clip indication, yet there sounds like clipping from my recorder in this recording. The level meters don't always show full when this clipping sound is heard. I'm wondering if it's something in the signal chain?

Vox AC30-->Sure SM58(with ball removed, a couple inches from the speaker) -->Boss Micro BR(little 4 track digital recorder).

I've even tried turning down the sensitivity on the input but the clipping noise can still sometimes be heard on dymanic spikes.

Clip is here

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9283521

What's happening? Thanks

 

[tlennon1]

You're not getting a clipping indication on the output but you are probably getting it at the input gain stage. Turn it down.

 

[John Willett]

It depends where in the chain the gain control is.

If the gain is after the first stage amplification then you could be clipping this stage and the control has no action at all to stop the clipping.

This is quite common in video cameras.

The solution is to either move the mic. further away or to insert an in-line pad in the cable.

 

[RAMI]

The level meters don't always show full when this clipping sound is heard.

The level meters should NEVER show full. The fact that they're showing full at all means you're recording way too hot.

 

[John Willett]

The level meters should NEVER show full. The fact that they're showing full at all means you're recording way too hot.

You misunderstood - he didn't say that the meters read full at all - just that they do not read full when it clips - and you would expect them to read full if it clips.

This indicates to me, as I said before, that he is clipping the front end before the level controls.

 

[mgray]

Ok thank you, I think I understand what you guys are telling me.

There are 2 input controls on this thing. The first is a wheel which sets input level, from 0-100. Then inside the menu control, there is a sensitivity setting that adjusts from -15db to +9db. It's the sensitivity that I usually adjust down(this recording was -5db) to try and stop the clipping. Maybe I should be turning down the input level rather than the sensitivity? (turning sensitivity anywhere up past +4b introduces a lot of noise)

I find tho, that if I turn the sensitivity down too much, the overall sound gets pretty "thin and distant" although I can better control the peaks that clip. There's obviously gotta be a better way to control the peaks and stop the clipping, yet still have the sound sound up front can clear.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[RAMI]

I find tho, that if I turn the sensitivity down too much, the overall sound gets pretty "thin and distant" although I can better control the peaks that clip. There's obviously gotta be a better way to control the peaks and stop the clipping, yet still have the sound sound up front can clear.

I'll say it again. You're recording too hot. Nothing should come close to peaking. It's only your imagination that the sound gets thin and distant when you turn down. It's impossible. It's simply....lower. Turn up your monitors and don't let anything peak past -6. The old "record as hot as you can without going over zero" doesn't apply to digital recording. Turn it way down.

 

[RAMI]

You misunderstood - he didn't say that the meters read full at all - just that they do not read full when it clips - and you would expect them to read full if it clips.

He said:

The level meters don't always show full when this clipping sound is heard.

The fact that he put the word "always" in there lead me to believe that they "sometimes" do clip, but I might be wrong.

 

[mgray]

He said: The fact that he put the word "always" in there lead me to believe that they "sometimes" do clip, but I might be wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlWUaiQsxiQ

Here is a video of the typical display I have when recording my usual setup. Sorry I didn't have time to record the amp and synch the video, but the display of my meters is what I see when this noise can be heard.

When it blinks "clip" it's obvious that's it's clipping(clearly heard). But even when the meter is not at max, after the 11second mark of the video, and the "clip" never blinks, I can hear what we hear in the audio sample.

I think the confusion is in how my meters and clip indicator work and display. There are only 6 units of the meter to display, all in monochrome color(no yellow/red), and at idle sound, the bottom unit is always lit with a fluctuating 2nd line. That only leaves 4 more units to properly scale my input signal. Could the metering on this thing just be junk?

Here's a link to the manufactures product page for those who are curious.

http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=818
[video=youtube;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlWUaiQsxiQ]video[/video]

 

[The Cancers]

To re-reiterate Rami's point, you're recording too hot.
When you have "idle sound" (I'm assuming this means record is armed but you're not making any noise and so the meter is just displaying the amount of background noise in your signal) you should have absolutely nothing going on with your meters. If you're recording so hot that background/internal noise (ie your noise floor) is giving you a steady first and occasional second bar on those meters, then you aren't leaving yourself nearly enough headroom.
The sound will ABSOLUTELY NOT be affected by recording at a lower volume. The difference you perceive is in the fact that you are used to hearing things played back at a certain level and when you record a signal that is less hot but still play it back at the level you're used to, the Fletcher-Munson effect comes into play (google it) and you hear less of the frequencies that give it characteristics like "thickness" and "power." Record quieter and turn up the monitors.

You should not come close to clipping. The loudest part of the transient attack of an instrument can be very quick and much louder than the average level of an instrument meaning that it can peak without actually showing up on your meters - especially if you are recording so the meters are bouncing around just below the clip indicator.

RECORD QUIETER AND TURN UP THE MONITORS.

 

[John Willett]

Ooh - those meters are horrible!

With a 24-bit recording you should use the -18dBFS mark as the 0VU point and peak up to 10dB above this - as a rule of thumb.

This still leaves at least 8dB safety to account for inter-sample peaks which don't register but can still cause problems.

But so few level lights are almost useless - with only 6 lights you should never really let more than 4 be lit, I would say.