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jokerone
Guest
lol
Yes, if your HMO doesn't cover vasectomys please let me know and I'll post her singing for you..
Yes, if your HMO doesn't cover vasectomys please let me know and I'll post her singing for you..
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
very nice ...... I see where your screen name comes from.Yes, if your HMO doesn't cover vasectomys please let me know and I'll post her singing for you..
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jokerone
Guest
very nice ...... I see where your screen name comes from.
Actually its an old Marine Corps radio call sign. A place my hearing began taking a beating. But yes, I can quite a goofball sometimes.
saads
Baka
True. Look up "Nyotaimori"
That's what I don't get. What does it take to sing ? You need to be able to hear when you're not in key, and you need to able to know what you need to do correct it. The more music you hear, the more sensitive you'll be. If you sit down with a tone deaf person and make them listen to samples of vocals in different keys, it's not like he/she won't appreciate the difference. If they make it a point to try to appreciate the difference, try to learn to recognize how good and bad vocals differ, I see no reason why they can't sing. The only reason tone deaf people never learn to sing is because of a lack of interest in putting in the required effort, or in singing altogether. Ofcourse, IMO
I was there in 2005. Very expensive for Americans. Our money spends like Pesos or somemthing.
My brother lived there for about 7 years and is married to a wonderful woman from Yokohama. So I went to visit them. They now live in Shanghai. I'll make it to visit them at some point.
thanks
I know a woman from Yokohama, extremely nice and courteous person. Infact, most Japanese people I know are the same. Did you get to go to Tokyo ?
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
well, you're essentially saying that everyone can do everything equally well if they work at it ......... that's just not so.The only reason tone deaf people never learn to sing is because of a lack of interest in putting in the required effort, or in singing altogether. Ofcourse, IMO
When i was majoring in composition we had people who were so tone deaf .... they couldn't even get going up or down in pitch correct without regard to whether they were hitting the right note or not ...... just go UP or DOWN in pitch (ANY note ..... just up or down) from where you currently are.
Give them a sheet of music (which they could play on their instrument since they were all music majors so they understood music notation) and they understood that E on the top of the staff was higher than B in the middle of the staff but to sing it ...... after 2 years they still could NOT do it.
Say what you will ...... everyone is NOT equal and everyone does not have the same skills ...... some of it is physical and some people lack physical tools others have.
An example in a different field ...... I have a serious memory. I can read words to songs I'm learning to sing after reading them 2 or 3 times. And then they're there forever ....... I remember words to songs I learned 40 years ago and haven't played or sang or listened to since.
That's one of my skills. Other people might not have that and I absolutely see people trying hard for very long periods of time and still can't remember a song if they go very long without rehearsing it.
I didn't learn it by working at it ........ I've never put any effort whatsoever into improving or working with my memory ...... I just have it. I simply don't believe someone with a poor memory can get it to work like mine simply by working hard. They can improve ..... sure ....... but there are people with poor memories that, though they can improve, will NEVER be able to recall stuff like I do.
And there are skills others have that I don't. That's just how it is.
The brain is where most of this stuff happens and it's been shown in the lab that different peoples' brains function differently and, at least some of it, isn't subject to being made to exist thru hard work.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Here we go again- the old "nature vs. nurture" deal. In other words, talent vs. practice. First, if you take up guitar and take lessons, how long will it take to go from noob to guitar god? Say, 3-5 years, to begin with. If I grab some enthusiastic noob off the street and give him guitar lessons, in 3-5 years will he be Jimi Hendrix, Andre Segovia, Charlie Christian, Pete Townsend, Julian Bream? Probably not. Will he be able to play better than 99% of the people you meet on the street? Probably. Will fanatic practice make you a player in the NFL? Probably not. I know this from personal experience. I was an all state interior lineman, and if I was 6' 8" instead of 5' 8", I'd probably be a retired millionaire by now. So get over it. I can't make myself 6' 8", and you can't take a pill and become Freddy Mercury. That's probably a good thing, at least for your wife.
So what makes us so uptight about singing? First, the instrument is part of us. If a guitar sucks, you can get a new guitar. If your voice sucks, all you can do is learn to play it better. But in your mind, it's all about *you*, as if your nose was too big or your dick too small. Have you ever heard a guitar god play a cruddy guitar? It sounds a lot better than a bad guitarist playing a mint condition vintage Martin. When you are born, you go to God's guitar store, and he gives you the only one you are ever going to get. Some people get that vintage Martin, and others a Hondo with a warped top and a bent neck. I got a cheap Ovation that at least holds its tune. Like any instrument, it's up to you whether you learn how to play it, and whether you take care of it.
The other weird thing is that large numbers of non-singers and would-be singers act as if singing was a natural born gift, as if some people were born guitar players and others just can't learn. Voice seems to be the only instrument where people actually believe that crap. Pop, rock, blues, and Broadway are full of people who have lousy voices but have learned how to sing anyway. They are also full of people with perfectly good voices who *haven't* learned how to sing, because, as Lt. Bob correctly pointed out, luck is a huge factor in success (second only to money and hype).
Willie Nelson has an awful voice, but he learned to sing. So did Bob Dylan (sort of), and Jerry Garcia, Keb' Mo, Bruce Springstein, Mick Jagger, and a host of others. Then there are people with beautiful voices that have never learned to sing, but do anyway, like Jessica Simpson, Ann Margaret, Gwen Stefani.
In the end, if your voice sucks, you have to practice singing, because it will suck less. Then learn to support your singing by playing an instrument well (Jerry Garcia), having a story to tell (Bob Dylan), being backed up by a really good rhythm section (Bruce Springstein), putting on an elaborate stage show (Lady Gaga), or getting lucky (Tiny Tim). Until you can tell me that you have taken professional voice lessons for 3-5 years, and sung in a vocal group or choir for at least 2, you won't convince me that you can't sing at a "professional" level. And- until you *have* done that, you're just one more person with an ordinary set of vocal cords who hasn't made the commitment to be a singer.-Richie
So what makes us so uptight about singing? First, the instrument is part of us. If a guitar sucks, you can get a new guitar. If your voice sucks, all you can do is learn to play it better. But in your mind, it's all about *you*, as if your nose was too big or your dick too small. Have you ever heard a guitar god play a cruddy guitar? It sounds a lot better than a bad guitarist playing a mint condition vintage Martin. When you are born, you go to God's guitar store, and he gives you the only one you are ever going to get. Some people get that vintage Martin, and others a Hondo with a warped top and a bent neck. I got a cheap Ovation that at least holds its tune. Like any instrument, it's up to you whether you learn how to play it, and whether you take care of it.
The other weird thing is that large numbers of non-singers and would-be singers act as if singing was a natural born gift, as if some people were born guitar players and others just can't learn. Voice seems to be the only instrument where people actually believe that crap. Pop, rock, blues, and Broadway are full of people who have lousy voices but have learned how to sing anyway. They are also full of people with perfectly good voices who *haven't* learned how to sing, because, as Lt. Bob correctly pointed out, luck is a huge factor in success (second only to money and hype).
Willie Nelson has an awful voice, but he learned to sing. So did Bob Dylan (sort of), and Jerry Garcia, Keb' Mo, Bruce Springstein, Mick Jagger, and a host of others. Then there are people with beautiful voices that have never learned to sing, but do anyway, like Jessica Simpson, Ann Margaret, Gwen Stefani.
In the end, if your voice sucks, you have to practice singing, because it will suck less. Then learn to support your singing by playing an instrument well (Jerry Garcia), having a story to tell (Bob Dylan), being backed up by a really good rhythm section (Bruce Springstein), putting on an elaborate stage show (Lady Gaga), or getting lucky (Tiny Tim). Until you can tell me that you have taken professional voice lessons for 3-5 years, and sung in a vocal group or choir for at least 2, you won't convince me that you can't sing at a "professional" level. And- until you *have* done that, you're just one more person with an ordinary set of vocal cords who hasn't made the commitment to be a singer.-Richie
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
let me add that I don't feel any differently about guitar playing or instruments than I do about the voice.
I personally know quite a few people who have spent years putting LOTS of time into playing guitar and taking lessons and studying that never got beyond medicocre. And voixe is more dependent upon phusical things than playing an instrument.
You guys are kidding yourselves if you really think almost anyone can sing or play at a high level.
I personally know quite a few people who have spent years putting LOTS of time into playing guitar and taking lessons and studying that never got beyond medicocre. And voixe is more dependent upon phusical things than playing an instrument.
You guys are kidding yourselves if you really think almost anyone can sing or play at a high level.
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jokerone
Guest
True. Look up "Nyotaimori"
I know a woman from Yokohama, extremely nice and courteous person. Infact, most Japanese people I know are the same. Did you get to go to Tokyo ?
Yes, I stayed with my brother who lived in the shinjuku prefecture on the main drag.
saads
Baka
I'm not saying almost anyone, I'm saying absolutely anyone can be a great singer IF they get the right training and put in the right amount of time. Sure, it may come more easily to others, but I refuse to believe it's impossible for anyone.
However, there really isn't any way either one of us can prove our point beyond doubt. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe there are people out there who are incapable of singing, who knows?
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
I think there really are people who can't sing, and there really are people who can't play an instrument, but they are a really tiny minority. There are, however, many, many, people who can't teach *themselves* to sing or play. Almost all of the people I know who have played or sung for years and still suck have refused to admit that they need to take lessons. There may be people who can teach themselves to be neurosurgeons, but most folks need to go to medical school, and undergo internship and residency. My other point is that there are plenty of professional singers that have done rather well in spite of the fact that their voices suck, or they never learned how to sing, or both. IMHO, your time and mental energy will be much better spent learning how to sing than worrying about how your voice sounds, or how you will make money doing it. That, unfortunately, is the sad truth, that there are a lot more great singers and players going broke than there are millionaire superstars. Learning how to make money with music is another skill set entirely, and often works against becoming a really good musician.-Richie
P.S. It may have been inappropriate to cite Gwen Stefani above. She finally did admit that she needed vocal coaching (or her producers forced her, I'm not sure which), and she has actually gotten to the not-too-bad point. This, however, was *after* she made millions and played the Superbowl.
P.S. It may have been inappropriate to cite Gwen Stefani above. She finally did admit that she needed vocal coaching (or her producers forced her, I'm not sure which), and she has actually gotten to the not-too-bad point. This, however, was *after* she made millions and played the Superbowl.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
well, ..... first I totally agree about 'making' it in the business. That's unrelated to skill a lot of the time and, as I said earlier, is a totally different subject.
As for the other thing ...... I suppose it also depends on what you mean by 'sing at a professional level'.
In it's strictest sense ..... that simply means making some money at it.
But there have been lots of studies done in brain research about really creative people and they have different brain wiring than uncreative people and all the training in the world won't change that wiring.
Let's go in a different direction ....... I think absolutely anyone can learn to paint. Maybe they need lessons but the mechanics of painting a piece of art can be taught and learned by anyone for sure.
NOW ...... does that mean anyone can learn to paint masterpieces? I don't think so. The true masters have been few ...... sure, after hundreds of years there have been a decent number but compared to the number of artists that tried and only produced mediocre artwork the percentage is pretty small.
This is because of several things. One could simply be vision ..... an ability to see and correlate colors because of exceptional vision. As far as I know ...... you can't teach someone to see better ...... otherwise there would be no glasses. It's a physical thing.
But the other is that artistic creativity thing and that resides in brain chemistry and brain 'wiring'. It too is a physical thing in that their brains are wired in a way that allows them to be creative while painting when others are doing it by rote. Here are the rules and this is how I put the paint down.
The same applies to music. There are physical issues ...... if your ears don't work as well as someone elses' they just don't and there's no lesson to make your eardrums work better.
And then there's that brain wiring thing.
There's also the physical issue of vocal cords. Some people have very limited range and though that can be improved by exercises ...... there are certain characteristics to a voice that are inherent to that persons physical vocal cords.
And some people have nasty sounding vocals.
I guess I agree that almost anyone can improve but I've done this daily for a very long time and I've interacted with many thousands of players.
Perhaps after 42 years of playing 330 gigs a year I've seen a larger cross section or perhaps I've gotten more picky as to what I think is good..
But when I catch American Idol, for example, virtually NONE of those guys impress me. All of 'em are limited in the styles they can handle and usually sound awful on everything but a few styles.
Same with players ........ some of the greats of all time don't do anything for me. I'll avoid mentioning names because it would detour into a "You don't think ***** is any good?!" "How dare you?"
When I talk about being good, I'm not talking about simply being able to sing ...... I'm talking Ella Fitzgerald or Sinatra or people like that.
And their mechanics are often so-so. Sinatra sang all around the note a lot of the time but there was something different and special about his phrasing and delivery that I personally don't think can be taught just like virtually none of you, no matter how you try and how many lessons you take and how many years of 18hour days you put into it will ever paint anything approaching a Van Gogh.
But as saad said ...... this is a matter of opinion and there's no way to prove any of our opinions. Interesting discussion though.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
There's a saying.... "Educated beyond his/her intelligence."
I think we can apply that here..."Trained beyond his/her talent."
I agree that you can train people to perform a task, maybe even become somewhat proficient at it, and singing is no different. With a training, anyone can learn to sing.
How much talent they actually possess to become appealing singers/players/performers...is another thing.
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Greg_L
Banned
Summary please.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
So your voice sucks. Get over it. Take lessons, and remember lots of people got rich sucking, not just ho's.
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Greg_L
Banned
Nice, thanks.
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jokerone
Guest
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Not just anyone can sing. I have a mate that is very versatile in his listening to music and knows a good tune and all the rest. But he simply cannot sing. I didn't believe there was such a thing as tone deafness until I heard Chandra sing. That's the kind of voice you scare little kids with.
But most people can sing. It's just that there is no reason why most people should spend time and effort and whatever else it takes to really work on their voices. What, so they can sing in the shower or while cooking ? Naw. So most people don't try to improve. And then many don't believe that they can. You know, even many good singers are lazy singers, not going that extra mile to absolutely hit that peak of the right note. Bear in mind that pitch correction was not developed for people that cannot hit the notes but for those that can but don't always. And being able to play an instrument to expert levels is no guarantee of a decent voice any more than it is of good timing and rhythm.
The only way Jokerone is ever going to know for sure is to try over a period of time. And going back to Strummer, Dylan and Young, the timbre of their voices may be buzz sawy and horrible and duck quacky, but they could remain in tune. If the Joker can't do that at a bare minimum, he's one of those that basically can't sing. They exist. In tiny quantities perhaps. But they exist.
But most people can sing. It's just that there is no reason why most people should spend time and effort and whatever else it takes to really work on their voices. What, so they can sing in the shower or while cooking ? Naw. So most people don't try to improve. And then many don't believe that they can. You know, even many good singers are lazy singers, not going that extra mile to absolutely hit that peak of the right note. Bear in mind that pitch correction was not developed for people that cannot hit the notes but for those that can but don't always. And being able to play an instrument to expert levels is no guarantee of a decent voice any more than it is of good timing and rhythm.
The only way Jokerone is ever going to know for sure is to try over a period of time. And going back to Strummer, Dylan and Young, the timbre of their voices may be buzz sawy and horrible and duck quacky, but they could remain in tune. If the Joker can't do that at a bare minimum, he's one of those that basically can't sing. They exist. In tiny quantities perhaps. But they exist.
Hakea
New member
The answer is yes, or rather a string of yesses.
Leaving aside the debate about how good you could get, there's a very good chance that you could drag yourself up to a basic demo level. The range of processing that you can do to vocals is astonishing - from timing and pitch correction through to changing the timbre.
The real issues are probably about how long it would take and how cost effective it would be. On that basis, hiring a singer would probably win in the short term. But doing it yourself might be more satisfying and more useful in the long term. If you already play then you probably have enough of an ear, and a good enough sense of timing, to know when you're blowing it. So the next step is plenty of work - both on your vocal skills and on understanding how to operate the software. One of the most crucial skills is phrasing though. You can fix the timing and the errors pretty easily, and improve the noise you make, but if you have lousy phrasing and can't 'sell' a song well, then that's a tougher nut. (I'm doing exactly the same thing, for the same reasons, and have been pleased with how far down the track I've got, from as bad a start as you could find..... A long way to go yet, but it's a lot of fun. )
STORY:
To give you an idea. A friend of mine has a small studio and one of his students/clients is a guy well into his 70s who is an enthusiastic but erratic singer. He isn't much good, but he just loves it. So he roars away in the studio and his teacher then fixes it all. Melodyne does a big chunk of the work, but he has a range of techniques in the toolkit. I was there the other day and the old boy was beaming with pleasure and couldn't wait to tell us how impressed his mates had been with his little EP. "They couldn't believe it was me singing!" he said. In a sense it wasn't either, but he was so very happy with the results....
Later, at a party, his teacher was approached by a grim look woman (who turned out to be the old guy's wife) who stood over him and demanded "You're not encouraging him are you! You know he can't sing!!"
Very sad that she is such a cow, but there's no doubt that he sounded pretty good after an extensive software make-over. Good luck with it.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Grim- Bob Dylan does *not* stay in tune. I love him, but every note he's ever sung has been flat relative to the music. It's become a signature sound for him. Then he adjusts the pitch until it's almost true, and then moves on to the next flat note.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
While I haven't listened to anything he's done with both ears after "Infidels", the stuff I have prior to that sounds OK to me. When I hear some singers that I think are out of tune it really grates on me. For me Dylan has never been one of those.