What do real engineers think about home recording.

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to me all of this debate is irrelevant.

The songs matter first and formost.
The quality of the recording is a distant second in my opinion.

i prefer a filthy,dirty gem to a shiny piece of shit.
 
XerXes said:
to me all of this debate is irrelevant.

The songs matter first and formost.
The quality of the recording is a distant second in my opinion.

i prefer a filthy,dirty gem to a shiny piece of shit.


Nicely put... I like it... I may just use that in the future... or do you hold copyright on it?

;) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :p

- Tanlith -
 
XerXes said:
to me all of this debate is irrelevant.

The songs matter first and formost.
The quality of the recording is a distant second in my opinion.

i prefer a filthy,dirty gem to a shiny piece of shit.

a few of us might prefer a clean shiny gem to a filthy dirty one. isn't that also an option?
 
littledog said:
a few of us might prefer a clean shiny gem to a filthy dirty one. isn't that also an option?
Not always. I have some things on 4 track that I can't seem to duplicate in any format.
I'm not saying that it is some kind of cassette magic....just lucky moments that I haven't been able to duplicate.

It's not always an option.;)
 
"All I ask is that you accept a couple of facts:

1) My opinion is my own and is rooted in personal experiences I have had."

those FEW NEED to go! We ALL need to be part of that solution. If guys like me complain about them, then everyone just says were trying to put down a competitor, but I complain anyway :)

"3) My opinion is also swayed by the experiences of several long time friends of mine (3 of which did make it "big" -- 1 of which was signed on the spot after playing his demo cassette ... which was recorded live in a garage) -- the largest% of my frinds find the technicinas they have met to be arrogent and self serving. (Their words... not mine)"

Now after your friend got signed with his garage made demo, they recorded in a real studio right?

"4) 12 yrs ago a man once told a group of us "When you send me a demo that was recorded in a studio like this one (We were at a recording seminar) you're not handing me a demo, you're handing me a master. I need something raw and live before I can decide weather or not I can work with you."

-- that man was Bob Ezra... and to be honest I can't see me disagreeing with him."

yes, if you are talking about demo's common wisdom not too long ago was for a raw one, in certain cases. But again, there is the need for a real studio to put out an album, Im SURE he also told you that.
I dont understand the point you are making with this demo stuff, if you got the goods to do it, you in most cases back then SHOULD have made your own demo. This has nothing to do with the need for real studios or real engineers.

However, we are now in a COMPLETELY different era.
This is " The Age of the Million Dollar Demo " . A digusting turn of events. Rich parents hire their kids a producer, a FULL blown one to create their kid's albums. This is too painful to even get into, but check around youll see the ugliness thats creeping thru.

Club owners wont even take demo's or CD's off of bands anymore, because they know how much stuff can be faked or edited now. Its obscene

"So I choose to terminate this and realize that I was indeed wrong in anything I said about you personally... I do however stick to my convictions about much of what I said in general.

I appologize to you for any comments that were directed directly at you as an individual. You also have my respect... wearing a reputation painted by people you've never met can't be an easy thing."

Youre a big man, and that takes a lot of balls. I think you just arent seeing all the facts, because you sure seem fair to me.

This IS a very cloudy issue, in a VERY shady business

If you were to walk in the shoes of any of us guys for a bit, I think youd see a whole new perspective

Remember, we arent your enemies, were your friends. The few who screw it up for you screw it up for us a whole lot wose! I mean, you arent alone in your feelings. The damage done by these few turkeys is a horrible burden that I personally and many others have to carry.

"With so many people willing to speak up for all the good you have done here it is obvious you don't fit into the category of tech for which I was speaking about... which confuses me a bit... if you don't fit into that category than to whome's rescue were you comming????"

I guess my own, really. I HATE to be misunderstood I guess. You gotta understand that many of us have sacrificed everything to do this job. My origins are underground music that would never see the light of day on the radio, and would NEVER be able to afford the innards of a big studio. Theres a few on this very BBS who Ive known nearly my whole life, and they can tell you, that Ive ALWAYS been for the little guy. We all hated the big money guys when we were younger, and I always wanted a chance to let the underground be HEARD

I guess I cant really emphasize enough how backwards it is to think that most of us would be in this for the money. A common joke is : how do you make a million dollars in the studio bizz?
start with 2 million dollars

think about this for a small place that MUST "take on all comers"

console :25,000
Recording formats: 15,000 ( AT LEAST)
Cabling and patchbays, panels etc...: 10,000
Accoustics: 10,000
Mics:10,000 ( yeah right! but OK )
Facilities, speakers, amps, etc.. 10,000
Cost of technology change per year: 5,000 ( lowball but hey)

so not even starting in with rent and everything else, were 85,000$ in the hole

now because of all the fraud studios, trust fund babies, drug dealers looking for a money laundering, and not quite there yet up and comers with accident settlements, the rates have to be WAY low, say 40 dollars an hour

Now lets say that even with that crap around you you are doing pretty damn good and booking 15 billable hours a week. 60 hours a month, thats a whopping $2400 a month. WOW $28,800 a year! Boy the money is just flying all over the place, better start handing out bonuses.

I'll say it one more time : It is NOT about the money!

What really hurts, is that a LOT of us are suffering pretty bad, sacrificing a lot, working a LOT of free hours, in order to make SOME kind of good CD for the budget of an album we are allotted. If that means doing a lot of editing at home, off the clock, so be it ( ask anyone Ive worked with)

And then the very people we are sacrificing everything for, the reason for our existence in the first place, are insulting us AND misunderstanding us.... it hurts

My hero, the guy who introduced a LOT of my favorite bands to the world, and sounds like a few of yours as well, has had to move back home with his parents!!! Its just disgusting

please dont kid yourselves or insult us by saying it is about ANYTHING besides music

We do have to weed out the frauds, and as much as noone will believe me and as bad as this will sound, most of the trouble is coming from guys with "commercial" home studios

but AGAIN, I think home studios are great, and they help me turn out better albums EVERY time, we all just need to get rid of the chumps

the original question was " What do real engineers think about home recording."

and my original answer, its the greatest thing a band can do for itself, no matter how far they want to go in the industry

and then

"to me all of this debate is irrelevant.

The songs matter first and formost.
The quality of the recording is a distant second in my opinion.

i prefer a filthy,dirty gem to a shiny piece of shit."

right, the songs matter most. But a good song WONT get you conventional exposure. My collection of albums from very early on in my life is almost all stuff that noones ever heard of, or that recieved very little exposure besides word of mouth: The Misfits, Crass, Dayglo Abortions, Beowulf, No Mercy, Sacred Reich, Ugly Americans, etc...

I tried to dedicate my life to recording those types of bands so that SONICALLY, they could stand up to the million dollar big money plastic people bands on the radio.

Stations and clubs use the excuse all the time that something wasnt recorded well, and thats why they wont play it.

I am VERY devoted to taking that excuse away from them
 
pipelineaudio said:

Now after your friend got signed with his garage made demo, they recorded in a real studio right?


ummm yeah ... a couple of times... it was The Tea Party :)



-- that man was Bob Ezra... and to be honest I can't see me disagreeing with him."

yes, if you are talking about demo's common wisdom not too long ago was for a raw one, in certain cases. But again, there is the need for a real studio to put out an album, Im SURE he also told you that. I dont understand the point you are making with this demo stuff, if you got the goods to do it, you in most cases back then SHOULD have made your own demo. This has nothing to do with the need for real studios or real engineers.

FYI: For those who don't know, Bob Ezra produced Kiss & Alice Cooper


Pretty much agree with that... I realized I not only misunderstood what you said... I think I wa losing it over what someone else said :p ... my aim was a bit off here... I'm not gunna comb through the posts again, but someone did make a rather crass comment something like this "You guys are wasting your time... never going to go anywhere... etc...etc..." Musta been a short term memory fart... happens at this age...


However, we are now in a COMPLETELY different era.
This is " The Age of the Million Dollar Demo " . A digusting turn of events. Rich parents hire their kids a producer, a FULL blown one to create their kid's albums. This is too painful to even get into, but check around youll see the ugliness thats creeping thru.



Oh the "rich kid" thing... yeah... that's a piss off to musicians everywhere I think. I got a demo by some chick who basically has no talent whatsoever... her uncle decided she was to be the next Patsy Cline... here's a 17yr old kid with a very expensive demo and a band that her uncle "bought" .... meanwhile... I look back at the days when I used to tour town to town with my old band... living in a cargo van (down by the river... LOL) ... seriously though... we slept for 3 months in a cargo van just to get some out of town exposure.... This kid was flown first class to Nashville to cut a "demo"...


Club owners wont even take demo's or CD's off of bands anymore, because they know how much stuff can be faked or edited now. Its obscene

It was hard enough to shop a demo to club owners 10yrs ago... that's why I used to bring Lance and myself and 2 acoustic guitars... we'd walk in and before he could say anything we'd do a tune in 2 part harmony... then hand him the tape. Now he KNOWS we know how to sing... it's just a case of listening to see if what he hears on tape is what he wants in his club...


I appologize to you for any comments that were directed directly at you as an individual. You also have my respect... wearing a reputation painted by people you've never met can't be an easy thing."

Youre a big man, and that takes a lot of balls. I think you just arent seeing all the facts, because you sure seem fair to me.


Hey... no biggie... if I'm wrong about something then I'm wrong. In fact... I'm wrong quite often... that's how I get to right! :) And that "big man" comment better not be about my weight! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D (jk)


I'll say it one more time : It is NOT about the money!

.....

please dont kid yourselves or insult us by saying it is about ANYTHING besides music


I see your point... I was comming from a musician's perspective when I made that comment... See, Polaris Studio (the only pro studio in Windsor) was always booked... (Going back to the late 80's here). So from my perspective if they're booked they're making money... As a band, we were 4 "kids" between 17-19yrs old working part time jobs and going to school... we could barely afford to rent equipment for a live gig... so we were caught between a rock and a hard place... We could cut a demo and have no money to play live to promote it... or we could try to get live bookings with no demo... when we finally did get enough money to book Polaris for a few hours (4hrs to be exact) we were kicked out after 3.25hrs because his next booking showed up early (and was a regular customer). When we asked for a partial refund we were "escorted" off the property... tried to get legal about it but the cops said "Get a lawyer" ... Like we could afford a lawyer?

About a year after that we go to Metal Works... book 6hrs... We saved and saved for that time... we lost about 1.5hrs because the sound engineer they gave us was having personal problems at home and kept calling home every 15min... <--- Now I don't wanna sound like an insesitive jerk, but My wife decided to leave me 3 days before I started my new job... I never let it affect my work... Any how... burned twice ... then I get bombarded by storys from my friends... time lost with no refund of any kind... I firmy believe that if I pay for a specific service be it time or product based... I should get what I was promissed.

Than again... like I siad to someone else in private... Windsor/Detroit isn't exactly "musican friendly" territory... although there is a LOT af good talent around here...


We do have to weed out the frauds, and as much as noone will believe me and as bad as this will sound, most of the trouble is coming from guys with "commercial" home studios

but AGAIN, I think home studios are great, and they help me turn out better albums EVERY time, we all just need to get rid of the chumps


Agreed.... I don't now, nor will I sell my services as a sound tech... I have a job... i just don't have the need for a pro tech... if someone offers me a record deal... then I'll shop for one! :)


right, the songs matter most. But a good song WONT get you conventional exposure. My collection of albums from very early on in my life is almost all stuff that noones ever heard of, or that recieved very little exposure besides word of mouth: The Misfits, Crass, Dayglo Abortions, Beowulf, No Mercy, Sacred Reich, Ugly Americans, etc...

I like to dig through old vinal at record stores for real obscure stuff... ever heard of Stone Fury? Was Leny Wolf's first band... (or second??) anyhow... real good stuff on that album. Zero exposure. <----- Hey! That'd be a cool Band name: Zero Exposure!

I tried to dedicate my life to recording those types of bands so that SONICALLY, they could stand up to the million dollar big money plastic people bands on the radio.

Stations and clubs use the excuse all the time that something wasnt recorded well, and thats why they wont play it.

I am VERY devoted to taking that excuse away from them


Hey ... if you're really for the underdog, then I'm in your corner.
 
a dirty gem, a shiny gem . . doesn't matter as long as it's a gem. some people and some bands (i happen to know some) would rather spend money on getting the "best" equipment and the "best" sound. but if the songs themselves are crap (of course crap is subjective) then it is all pointless.

i never judge the music i hear by the quality of the recording... to me that is more of a footnote to the entire song. if you've got great songs and record it at home and get it to sound great then that is awesome. and if you can't get a good recording then that's ok too in my book. i'll still give it a listen!

here's another phrase for you tanlith: you can't polish a turd.
 
remember theres a LOT of music noone even gets a CHANCE to hear because it sounded like crap. For every Misfits, theres a thousand Ugly Americans that write stuff every bit as good, but if not recorded so well, noone hears it, hell, even the misfit's recordings were pretty crappy, and even they didnt get near the exposure they deserved
 
Way back in this thread somebody said that they could always pick out 'home recordings'. I am interested to what the real sonic differences are that this person or anyone else hears and then how this difference in sound really translates to differences in equipment and location that everyone was talking about. Can we see some concrete examples? Then maybe we can try to work to improve theses parts of our recordings.

Also, what is the ture distinction between the 'real engineers' in the 'pro studios' and the 'home recordists' as used in this thread. Someone earlier alluded to those of the second group that operate under the guise of the first. Can someone define the terms clearly?

What about the Boston album and other things that were recorded at 'home' and have received considerable airplay and sold lots of albums? Of course, someone may point out that that particular album was done partly in a 'pro studio' and probably mixed there too. Feel free to use songs from that album to point out how the sound is less than 'pro' due to the recording so that I can listen and learn from that. I am of the knowledge that Duran Duran's "Ordinary World" was recorded in one of the band member's home studio too. Yes's "Talk" album was done at Rabin's home studio (except for the drums which are unfortunately my favorite part of that album)I am sure there are others.

Someone mentioned earlier about how much 'mastering' improves even the 'pro' stuff. Well, honestly I would like to hear what stuff made these days sounded like before it was destroyed, I mean mastered. I know I am starting a whole new argument here, but I couldn't help it, and I still would like someone to attempt the above questions first, if they could. I would like to be able 2 hear a mix as it sounds right coming from the mix engineer to hear how good it really can sound, as I personally cannot stand the overlimited crap that is now commonplace. Then I could also see if the mastering engineer really did do anything that IMPROVED the sound.

I am not and have never been interested in making demos. If I truly cannot make the real thing then I might as well quit wasting time and money. However, I need to hear some real examples of why I or anyone else can't do it, and not just be told that we can't. Point to specific recordings that illustrate the actual differences in sound that you believe would prevent us from making radio-ready mixes. Thank you.
 
so just do it. it will be either great, mediocre, or sound like crap, but no one (including you) will know for sure until you try.

reopening long-dead threads so you can whine about how some anonymous people aren't giving other anonymous people enough respect for their unknown and unknowable skills in some un-named studio with unknown gear is certainly not going to do anything constructive towards furthering your goals, other than procrastinating doing your real work.

No amount of discussion will determine whether you will succeed or fail. Occasionally people with no knowledge, training, equipment, and skills do brilliant things. Probably more often they do a lot of crap. Which will it be for you? Ok, now prove it.

It's likely that after basking in the world's adulation, you won't even remember what some clown like me ever wrote. Which is a good thing...
 
djc said:
It's all irrelevant anyway. How many of you think you even have a snowball's chance in hell of making it big?

Chance has nothing to do with it. To quote my all time favourite AE - "If you aspire to greatness, have a listen to those that lead the way and learn everything that you can."
 
eyesore said:
Also, what is the ture distinction between the 'real engineers' in the 'pro studios' and the 'home recordists' as used in this thread. Someone earlier alluded to those of the second group that operate under the guise of the first. Can someone define the terms clearly?

It's usually experience, and a deeper technical knowledge of how the equipment actually works.

What about the Boston album and other things that were recorded at 'home' and have received considerable airplay and sold lots of albums? Of course, someone may point out that that particular album was done partly in a 'pro studio' and probably mixed there too. Feel free to use songs from that album to point out how the sound is less than 'pro' due to the recording so that I can listen and learn from that. I am of the knowledge that Duran Duran's "Ordinary World" was recorded in one of the band member's home studio too. Yes's "Talk" album was done at Rabin's home studio (except for the drums which are unfortunately my favorite part of that album)I am sure there are others.

These example are not "home studios" in the typical sense of the word - they are "pro studios", built in someone's home.

Someone mentioned earlier about how much 'mastering' improves even the 'pro' stuff. Well, honestly I would like to hear what stuff made these days sounded like before it was destroyed, I mean mastered. I know I am starting a whole new argument here, but I couldn't help it, and I still would like someone to attempt the above questions first, if they could. I would like to be able 2 hear a mix as it sounds right coming from the mix engineer to hear how good it really can sound, as I personally cannot stand the overlimited crap that is now commonplace. Then I could also see if the mastering engineer really did do anything that IMPROVED the sound.

We do that on a regular basis over at rec.audio.pro where you have a mix of pro's, home studio owners, mastering engineers, and manufacturers all discussing things like this. We don't exchange mp3's either; we put out a 4 to 7 disc limited edition CD set every year that lets us listen to different recording techniques, examples of mic placements and various microphones, before and after mastering examples, and even examples of our mistakes and how we went wrong.

I am not and have never been interested in making demos. If I truly cannot make the real thing then I might as well quit wasting time and money. However, I need to hear some real examples of why I or anyone else can't do it, and not just be told that we can't. Point to specific recordings that illustrate the actual differences in sound that you believe would prevent us from making radio-ready mixes. Thank you.

It sounds like you already have a very defensive mind set, so I doubt that anything I could say or examples I could show you will sway you from your opinions. Let me just say that good engineers can work almost anywhere, on anything, and get good results because they understand the process.

Get a hundred guys sitting around playing guitar and singing, and then listen to Paul McCartney singing "Yesterday" or "Michelle" by himself, with just his guitar, and you'll understand the difference between a 100 home studios and one really good "pro" studio.

Yes, there are some schlock studios that go under the name of "pro", but the really good studios still exist and will continue to exist because they offer a range of services, equipment, and experience that isn't available to the home recording enthusiast.

 
back to the original topic . . .

all the pro's i've met or worked with were super cool. they were really encouraging. they realized this is an art and artists take time to develop, and to learn their trade. from what i've experienced, thye have been great guys to work with. actually most of them were happy to finally meet someone in the studio who knew the difference between a U47 and an SM58. some are probably arrogant assholes, but so are some of you (us).
 
I think that we all have the same thoughts in mind don't we?
That "Passion" for music, from a seasoned engineer to the newbie just starting.
Wouldn't you think that the professional studio owner bares this in mind?
 
Somebody nuke this fucking thread before it gets out of control again. Im really tired of it. Thats it! start a new topic. No more!

Thanks in advance everyone.
 
tjohnston said:
Somebody nuke this fucking thread before it gets out of control again. Im really tired of it. Thats it! start a new topic. No more!

Thanks in advance everyone.

i've said this before but...

if you're tired of it STOP LOOKING AT IT - and leave the rest of us alone - jerk.
 
Will,
Given that TJ started this thread way back in February and there was a three month hiatus in posts until someone brought it back to life (or un-death) recently, I don't blame him for wanting to put it out of its misery.

TJ, I think you'll find you can delete the thread if you want. It's an interesting topic, but I can see why you might want to coax the genie back into the bottle.

There are some good posts in here, though, and some good examples of the disparity of experiences people have, based on what studio they happen to walk into, pro or otherwise. It might be a good primer for those who want to record in a "real" studio. Up front research, references, and actually hearing sample product will help them make a choice that won't sour them on the whole industry. Also, talking to the engineer for a bit may help you screen out any obvious excretory organs. :cool:
 
Re: Yes thats true

tjohnston said:
I never heard a home recording that blew me away. Everything I have ever heard has been so cheap sounding. It is always obvious that it was recourded at home. Surf through some mp3.com stuff and you will see what I mean.

Lately, I have never heard a "pro" recording that blows me away. Today's recordings are possibly the worst recordings in history. 2000s recordings are done in a day and spewed out to the buying public. The new recordings take away any argument about home vs pro. Home recordings have people who care about the outcome. The pros are that, pros. Recording is their job. Some love it and care, most get as excited as you when you talk about your job.
 
Re: Re: Yes thats true

acorec said:
Lately, I have never heard a "pro" recording that blows me away. Today's recordings are possibly the worst recordings in history. 2000s recordings are done in a day and spewed out to the buying public. The new recordings take away any argument about home vs pro. Home recordings have people who care about the outcome. The pros are that, pros. Recording is their job. Some love it and care, most get as excited as you when you talk about your job.
Amen. I think this is what it comes down to.

My home recording allows me all the time in the world to fuss over, dream about, mold, stress out about, and otherwise tend to, my music. No pro studio in the world can offer this, for the simple fact that as the clock ticks, the money dissapears. The only people who can afford to spend all the time in the world in a pro studio are bloated rock stars with nothing interesting left to say. (With a few notable exceptions.)
 
Re: Re: Yes thats true

acorec said:
Home recordings have people who care about the outcome. The pros are that, pros. Recording is their job. Some love it and care, most get as excited as you when you talk about your job.

You would be amazed at how seriously most "pros" take their job... it's not just an 'income stream', it's an obsession for most of us. Often the largest difference between the "pro" and the "hobbiest" is that the "pro" gets to do this shit all day long and the "hobbiest" more than often would prefer to.

There is a growing dismay that a whole lot of "pro"s I know face these days... shrinking record company budgets... A&R morons 3/4's insisting that the budget buy a Pro-Tools rig and do the bulk of the overdubs in the singers kitchen... then wasting $40-$50 [and often more] on some "famous mixer dude" who will try to 'cookie cutter' the product to fit their "signature mold"... and worse, the "mastering engineers" that support those "cookie cutter" methods.

There is a definite dichotomy between many of the professionals who work their balls off for the bands they record and many of the morons who are "famous mix dudes" and "big time mastering engineers". Often these two roles are seen as being played more by asswipes who've sucked the political corporate pee-pee than they are perceived as deserving professionals.

The long and the short of it is that many of the "big time pros" are indeed jaded cocksuckers who are turning out mindless 'assembly line' work [and they're the ones who probably make around 80% of the money], and there are stacks and stacks of brutally dedicated professionals [not so "big time pros"] who don't make a great living... but at the end of the day they'll eat their spleen for their clients [oh, and they're the ones who do about 80% of the work].
 
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