What counts

[analogkid]

I used to use Beyer Dynamic mics for vocals a lot --- 201 I am thinking was the model number. As the saying goes, you simply can't have enough microphones. I would suggest making your own Isolation booth for vocalists in general - basically completely dead room so you can capture the voice itself, then sweeten it up with reverb/delay when mixing. Recording the live room sound has always worked well for me with guitar amps, but never with vocals...


AK

 

[ethyrvalve]

Hey Cory,
Have you tried the Omni pattern on the B3? I used to own one (I really quite liked it but I had to sell it to finance a c414 TL-II) and I found the omni pattern to be vastly superior to the cardioid for recording anything with a 'harsh' quality. I believe the omni freq response scoops a tad of the high mids.

Also, if you can afford to hire one, I reckon a Shure SM7-b or a Sennheiser MD441 might be worth trying on her. Or maybe a darker condenser like the AT4047 fet (which still has plenty of 'air').

 

[sweetbeats]

Dave, Daniel, AK, Pete...did I miss anyone? Awesome ideas/suggestions...thank you! I'm paying close attention to each one and I look forward to reporting back which combination of ideas does the trick.

Pete, my recording area is such a prime example of a non-professional space. Frankly, its embarrasing but...fish gotta swim, amatuer recording engineers gotta record even if the space is goofy...my point is that I have no dry vocal booth per se. The sole recording space isn't live by any means, but it isn't dead either. I will still give the omni pattern a try. It had crossed my mind and I discarded it based on logic, but then again logic was somewhere else when I threw the kick mic up in front of her and that seemed to help so...

 

[hilltop studios]

Sweet,
Pardon me for hijacking your thread for a moment while I respond to cjacek.I know you won't mind

Cjacek,
Ok lets say your the vocalist.....how about rehearsing with the song in your control room, listening to your monitors. Get a feel for the dynamics of the song as you sing along. Now put on the one can, turn down or turn off your monitors and rehearse a bit more. When your ready hit record As far as consistency goes you could track with a bit of compression to help even things out and then use a bit more compression when you mix. I personally like to use a small amount of compression a couple of times rather then have to compress harder once. It usually sounds better to my ear. Of course a lot depends on the style of song, vocalist and obviously how well the comp your using suits the style of the song. If it's punk or metal and the vocals consist of growls and screams obviously you may be in max comp/limiting mode Choices, choices isn't it wonderful If watching the vu's is helpful to you while you sing by all means do that. Maybe try it both ways and see what sounds better. Once you find what works best for you then you get to start all over when your recording another vocalist Fun stuff right ?? Good luck to you. Regards, Dave

 

[cjacek]

DAVE: Great, thanks so much for the information!

CORY: Have you tried something like this:
http://www.seelectronics.com/rf.html
http://www.modtrap.com/

 

[Talldog]

Both of those baffles work well.

 

[hilltop studios]

Sweet,
You can also DIY some baffles. Here's a couple of links to what I built. I have six panels that I can move around. Put them around the drums, stick a couple around a guitar amp, raise a few to their high posistion and make a little vocal booth. They really work well. A guy at my local lumber yard cut all the wood for me and I just assembled them. The most expensive item was obviously the auralex but they were used panels I scored for about half price on ebay Just an idea for you. I'm sure you'll come up with something when you have time. In my old 4 track days I used to hang heavy blankets, old drapes, what ever I could find, it all helps. Good Luck. Dave

http://www.hilltopstudios.com/images/6south_vinny&chris.jpg

http://www.hilltopstudios.com/images/Matt.jpg

http://www.hilltopstudios.com/images/steve_crawley.jpg

 

[sweetbeats]

Tracking session #2 tonight

I'm pretty excited to try out the suggestions you all have offered up...

Since the first tracking session I:

1. Made a really long MIDI cable so that the girl I'm recording doesn't have to listen to the awful samples of the old digital piano that is in the "studio"...the piano is now connected to my Yamaha 01X --> Cubase which comes with some good virtual instruments. Nicer sounding pianos...latency is really low with my hardware...plus I can dial in some ambience effects, so that takes care of at least one distraction...made the MIDI cable out of cheapcheapcheap ends ($0.50?) and scrap CAT5 cable.
2. Decided to track the piano and vox at separate times so she can stand while singing. She seemed really happy about that...I'm going to keep encouraging her to let me know what she needs/would like.
3. Picked up some freebie 2" acoustic panels on my recent trip to Southern California...crammed whatever we could fit in...tacked them together to make two 5' 8" 'L' sections...two smaller panels make a roof. In the end I can make a little temporary 3-sided booth that is easily moved about...not an iso-booth per se, but it definitely deadens things around the mics...pretty effective to my ears. Here's a pic...think DIY, guys...
   
4. Here's a closeup of the mic array borrowing from Bobby Darko's earlier suggestion...SM57 up close which worked well during session #1 but naturally lacked the air and clarity I was hearing in my mind, and the SM94 as far back as I could get it...Bobby said several feet back pointed at the forehead. Well, 1 out of 2 ain't bad. I'll see how it ends up working. I've got phase reverse on the M-520 so...
   
5. I've got the M-520 wired up as the hub of the studio now...can't say enough about how great it is having all controls accessible on the surface...no more jury-rigging talkback mics and aux send routing. It's all there, and the M-520 is really flexible. This will help during tonights session because I wasted time having to reroute things during session one trying out different pre's. Plus, the monitoring faculties of the M-520 make it so easy for me to check on her mix...Compressors and para eq's are wired into the patchbays as are aux sends, direct outs, headphone amp, DAW return etc. etc. etc. Its now the way it is supposed to be...unplug and repatch within easy reach...independent control of levels to the DAW, cue and control room mix if need be...The 01X used to be the hub of the studio...it remains the hub of the DAW I/O, but as far as the analog side is concerned the only thing the 01X is at this point is an effects processor, which brings me to another point...
6. I have her cue mix going through the 01X effects engine and I've got some stereo reverb dialed in...I think this is really going to help. I'm using two auxes for her cue mix so she has the dry signal dead center but the reverb surrounds her...same with whatever virtual instrument we pick. I think that's going to help her a lot.

I'll keep you posted on how it goes, and thanks again for all the suggestions!.

Here is my miniature control room with everything patched up, routed and ready to go for this eve.

 

[cjacek]

That setup looks mighty nice, Cory. Best of luck during your session tonight.

...and while we're on the subject, here's a budget 'vocal booth' [front & rear], made out of a couple of duvets, booms stands and clips. [Not my photos - found 'em online sometime back].

--

 

[mshilarious]

I'm, like, a month late, and maybe too late for tonight, but don't be afraid to try the SM94 as a primary mic, with a screen or pop filter right on it. Not too many people know this mic, but I used them for years with a 424 before I got pres with phantom. It's dark for a condenser, especially compared with a SP, and I gotta think it's better than a kick mic . . .

 

[sweetbeats]

Better late than never...late would actually be tomorrow morning.

The SM94 is actually one of my favorite. Wish I had 2 of them.

I'll keep that in mind, msh.

I thunk ahead this time. The mic case and all my clips and shock mounts are right close so it is quick and easy to swap mics around and try different things.

I try not to be a gear snob, but another thing I thought of (and can't remember if I mentioned) is the mic cable. I changed that out for tonight. I'm using older (like 15 year old) ProCo cables...the cable itself seems to be of good quality, and the solder joints look nice compared to some awful ones I've seen on cheap import cables...so I think they are okay, but I'm wondering if this is one of those times I try out a more expensive cable...? I'll see how things go tonight.

Daniel...that picture makes me want to take a nap!

 

[sweetbeats]

Well...survived.

And pretty well at that.

I must say thanks to Bobby Darko for the idea on the mic array. Its funny...I spent some money on those Studio Projects mics, the C1 and the two B3's. Not unhappy with them, but I got the C1 specifically for vocals, and then I don't use it. I end up using my hi-hat and snare mic that I got back in the early 90's.

I reallyreallyreally liked working with that array. Msh, you were right, probably could have gotten away with not using the 57, but it was really cool to have both of them. The original input stream for both mics was M-520 pre --> Tascam PE-40 eq --> ART TCS compressor --> direct out from M-520 to patchbay to i88x line input ---> ADC to DAW. I didn't plan on nor did I use the eq on the M-520, and actually after the first take I pulled the PE-40 out of the loop too...I really tried to focus in simplicity, thinking of the eq as an "only in extreme situations" piece of equipment. It really helps to understand that every link in the chain adds noise and distortion. I set the TCS to an optical compressor for the SM94, and a VCA based circuit for the 57. Set the attack and release so the gain reduction meter danced nicely with her vocal rhythm and set the threshhold so that the gain was rarely reduced by more than 2dB and most the time they sat at 0dB...ratio for both was set to 2:1. Back to the 2-mic thing...With no eq in the loop there was a nasal quality which I abated somewhat by reversing the phase on the 57, and then I had a great deal of control over the quality of the the lower bands via the level of the 57 due to the comb filtering. It was cool. I decided to modulate the level of the 57 rather than the 94 because the 94 sounded great on its own and the 57 not so much. As I'd bring up the level of the 57 it would start to increase the vocal power and then it would get hollow and then there was a small sweet spot...go over and she sounded like she needed decongestant...under and she was singing in a box, but that sweet spot was nice. So I routed those mics each to a PGM buss so I could play with the mix during tracking and then set the input faders for the proper level to the DAW and then monitored her cue mix at the console and tweakered the AUX knobs a little bit so it sounded nice.

Here's the best part: the harsh brittle quality with which we struggled so horribly the first tracking session was gone! On playback there is still a cut to her vocal quality but it is smooth and representative of what she sounds like, and rather than try to "fix" it now I have a feeling that quality will actually sit nice in the mix and keep its place out in front...it won't get buried, or rather it'll be harder for me to bury. I was really surprised on the absence of that biting brittleness from the first time. We noticed it sounded better during tracking, but I warned her that we were not listening to DAW playback and that it might be there after the ADC step...it wasn't. We braced ourselves on playback...there were a couple notes that would always set it off but it would roll through smooth. I think the 2-mic array, with those mics, was part of the solution. I really think having the baffles there did a lot too.

She was more relaxed. She was jazzed about the different piano patches we could pull up, and it was nice being able to bring in reverb from the instrument itself, and she really liked having reverb on her vocal...she liked a lot of reverb...I asked more than once "you're sure its not too much?", but it definitely helped her get lost in the music. She just kept saying "it sounds so pretty".

Had lots of struggles with the M-520 though...I was hoping I could just run with it, but I'm gonna have to pull the modules out and start cleaning pots and switches...mainly switches. The pots I can deal with, but some of the source select switches will cut the signal until you dicker with them, and the latching push switches...man! I had one channel ON switch that would be fine and then after you let things sit for a bit... ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-T...........ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

I finally got it to stop after exercising the switch and wiggling it around but it was totally unprofessional.

So anyway, it went well overall and it would not have gone so were it not for the helps I got here, so thanks!

 

[hilltop studios]

sweet,
Glad to hear things worked out better Always remember to make every session fun if you can. Your clients will love you for it and in the future when you think back to an old session you'll be smiling !!
Yes it's funny how most folks love that sea of reverb in the cans Especially if they are inexperienced or a little nervous. File that away for future use. regards, dave

 

[sweetbeats]

Tracking session #3 last evening...

I had hoped to track last night through a couple channels on the M-520 that have been fully cleaned, partially recapped and have some of the opamps upgraded to OPA2134's...for a number of reasons I missed the boat on that, but we were able to use some completely stock but cleaned channels and that was much nicer than dealing with the connectivity and noise issues of last session.

The vocalist is quite comfortable now...the process is familiar to her and she is confident asking for what she needs. Plus she has had in initial vocal lesson and that apparently went very well...she went from an A to an E and was able to hold pitch at that new range according to the instructor. It helps too that I am getting better acclimated to the M-520 every session. With so many ins and outs there are many stages at which the levels need to be monitored:

• Mic preamp
• Compressor inputs and processing settings
• Effects send sum
• Cue mix sum
• Effects processor input
• Effects return gain
• DAW return gain
• Blablah

BUT...I really like the meter bridge on the M-520. Even though I was only dealing with two mics (actually three...more on that later) there are all the above things to be monitored when tracking and there are enough VU's on that bridge to watch all that and more (my control room level and PGM buss levels) simultaneously, and I'm getting accustomed to what her cue mix tastes are and I found myself monitoring that mix last night and making adjustments to things I could hear that needed tweaking before she had to ask...you can listen with your ears and also watch the VU's as another reference check and really clean things up between those two. Its so refreshing to watch those warm VU meters bouncing around...

We had some minor issues with that high SPL distortion/graininess last night...not sure if it was a mic actually distorting or an opamp acting up or what. Levels were okay (she is performing so much more naturally by this point...leaning back from the mic when she is belting a line...more frills, etc. It has definitely stepped into fun territory and we're both pleased with the results...) and it will be interesting to see if that resolves at the next session where I'll be able to run signal through the channels with the partial recap and the opamp upgrades.

Still using the SM57 close up with the SM94 1 ~2' back. Also put up the Studio Projects C1 last night just to see what that was like relative to the SM94. Not happy with it. Far more grainy compared to the SM94 and even the way the 57 and the C1 interacted with respect to phasing and comb-filtering was less desirable...I realize that repositioning could open all kinds of possibilities to resolving that issue, but the 57/94 combo is working and sounds better too. No sense spending time dickering with mic positioning at this point IMHO. With the 57/94 combo I can get a range of sounds to fit each piece and, aside from the modest compression that is inserted there is absolutely no eq being applied.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!

 

[pianodano]

Hi Cory,

I listened to your MP3. I am sorry that I can't do a lot of typing. That's because I sorta had a accident last weekend and my fingers have stitches and splits. And naturally it was my left hand (I'm left handed).

Anyway that will give me all the more reason to keep it short and so that maybe not to many of the newcomers into recording will make fun of my thoughts.

Your vocalist is a perfect example of someone that has not yet learned to use the diaphram to support the voice. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with her voice. It is not. But the lack of diaphram support will exibit that almost caught in the throat and rather nasal sound with uncertain pitch landings.

Once she learns to support her voice with proper diaphram technique, she will be able to get the sound out of the throat and float her vocals from/through the upper cavities and the roof of her mouth. She most likely will be a fine singer. Encourage her.

In the meantime, put her in front of a ribbon. If there is a studio in your area that could rent you a 44BX, that would do probably do it. Warning, no phantom power on that!

A word to the wise. I spent many years buying expensive keyboards, recorders and all sorts of this and thats with the idea that a microphone is a microphone. That other stuff is certainly neat to have but, none of it means much of anything if a singer is supposed to carry the song with a convincing and moving vocal. So 1st, get the very best microphones you can get. Nothing will take the place of the right microphone for the right singer. A little reverb in the cans is all that will be needed to help them soar.

Regards,

Danny

 

[sweetbeats]

Danny...Danny...good gracious man what did you do to your hand? Did it happen in the cabinet shop? Serious bummer, man. I hope all the parts are still there and that you heal up quick and well...sheesh.

Danny et al, check this out...we did this this past Tuesday and it is much improved over especially the first tracking session.

This is just the SM-94 about 2' back from the vocalist. I was doing the rough mixing last night to get her a copy of what we covered at the session and I kept dropping the 57 to get the right blend and then I realized that the right blend was the SM94 alone... But you can tell she has been taking her inital vocal lesson seriously. Still some pitchiness but that is to be expected since she sounds so much more relaxed and open to my ears and she is trying out her "singing from the diaphragm" legs.

BTW, a MIDI key stuck for a bit about halfway through the piece...just ignore that...

Again, no pre AD eq, mild compression, and I added the reverb and a little eq to the vocal track in the DAW...I'm not happy with the mix yet, as the vocal sounds kind of brick-walled in-your-face when she hits peak levels, but I think it is really coming along well. It has been ejoyable to work with her as she takes critque very well and follows up, even taking initiative on stuff we don't discuss but I'm thinking it.

Hate to talk gear as its going relatively well just using what I got, but I'm thinking about selling the C1 and getting something else. Recommendations on a good affordable ribbon or LD dynamic anybody? Prolly could take that to the mic forum huh...

 

[pianodano]

Cory,

Thanks for the thoughts. Fingers are still there but unfortunately infection is setting in now. I lacerated the middle and index fingers to the bone on a rusty old wheelbarrow last saturday. It's kind of hard to explain how I did it and exactly how I did something so stupid, but I did.

I listened to the new one you put up. I do hear some improvement but I can't really judge on 1 listen just how much help is coming from the masking properties of the string pad which is predominately helping to round out the nasal-niss of her voice. But that's what makes a good arranger a good arranger imo- helping the vocalist in weak areas.

I developed the habit years ago, of playing a song with the vocals approximately where they need to be and walking out of the room, maybe even a couple rooms away and LISTENING with full concentration and intently, to the vocal. I did that midway thru while listening to her 2nd track above and I still hear the original attributes.

Danny

 

[sweetbeats]

Thanks for the thoughts. Fingers are still there but unfortunately infection is setting in now. I lacerated the middle and index fingers to the bone on a rusty old wheelbarrow last saturday. It's kind of hard to explain how I did it and exactly how I did something so stupid, but I did.

ooooooo! Its funny...sometimes the brain just skips a beat. I'm looking for the mark in the back of my right hand that I got rolling a power window up on a car...sitting in the driver's seat, left hand clutching the 'A' pillar, right hand reaching across to the button on the door armrest...I watched the window go up and then *crunch*. My eyes saw it happening but that time the brain didn't put one and one together. I hope you can keep the infection at bay...I'm sure they are super tender.

I listened to the new one you put up. I do hear some improvement but I can't really judge on 1 listen just how much help is coming from the masking properties of the string pad which is predominately helping to round out the nasal-niss of her voice.

Yeah, yeah...you're right about the pad...its amazing how much it effects the sonic shape of the voice...underscores the value of individual tracks amidst the full or at least partial program material. "Nasal-hiss"...just curious...any way you can quantify what that sounds like? I want to tune my ears to that. It's be much easier if we were in the same room and you could say "You hear that _____? That's it." Obviously we're not in the same room, but is there a frequency range where it occurs in your definition so I can hone in on that?

Danny, thanks for the thoughtful constructive criticism. I really appreciate it. I'll try the "walking out of the room" thing too. Haven't heard of that before...kind of like cleansing the pallette in between tastes of wine I suppose...You can still see and smell the wine but it prepares you for the next focus and brings out those lingering qualities of the last...blahblah.

 

[pianodano]

"Nasal-hiss"...just curious...any way you can quantify what that sounds like?

I guess I used the wrong description. I really meant the nasal, somewhat thin and edgy tone that is in the frequency range that you pointed out earlier. I didn't take voice lessons very long myself but the wonderful lady I studied under many years aog was amazing in that she had a way of knowing exactly how to correct a problem. I wish I had that ability. At the time, in my late 20's, I was playing full time 6 and 7 nights a weeks as a solo artist and she would have me record several nights each week for analysis. She somehow found the time to listen to the tapes and at next lesson we would work on problem areas. But really the most critical thing I learned was diaphram support and the fact that it is thtough that breath support that the strain is removed from the throat/ voice and the tones can get out of the throat and resonate in the upper cavities which helps the tone to become fully developed.


RE the walking out of the room thing. The human mind naturally wants to focus on another human voice. By getting away from the studio proper and into another room, your can critically determine a lot because your brain does the cocktail party thing and really HEAR what's important. You know what I mean, I hope. The key thing is that you really don't want the music itself loud enough to distract from intimately hearing every nuance of mainly the vocal and its overall tonality. I find that it is a most appropiate method for evaluating songs of the type/ genre that you are doing with the young lady. I hope that makes sense.

I was really frightened a few days ago because my fingers looked really bad with the infection. But this morning they are much improved.

When the accident happened saturday evening a week ago, I told the doctor, "look I know you can't tell it from my the look of beat up old hands, but I still play piano and hope to write many more songs". He was not encouraging at all. In fact he said, rather meekly, " your violin playing days are over". 3 days later when the infection had set in and I was terrifed of necrosis, I told the 2nd doctor the same thing and she was non committal. But now, Sunday, at least the infection appears to be under control and I am so thankful. There's evidently a good bit of nerve and tendon damage but you know what ? My faith tells me that it's gonna be ok. And as soon a possible, I'll start trying to do scales with my left hand and set what happens. I know it will take a long time.

All the best,

Danny

 

[sweetbeats]

Can I get your opinions?

Yes, sweetbeats actually does do more than tinker. Finally have made some headway with this project and I'm wondering if anybody would offer up any opinions/advice. Tracked and mixed this over the past couple weeks.

Because of my tinkering I was not able to track to analog. So what is this post doing in this forum then? Well...um...I did track the vocal through an analog board, and all the reverb is handled by my Tascam RS-20B spring 'verb...so its sort of analog only...anyway, please let me know what you think.