Warming Digital Tracks - Most Effective?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ajgrossman
  • Start date Start date
Try the Vintage Warmer and the PSP MixPack:

http://www.pspaudioware.com/

You can download demos of both. Though it may not be the advice you need (says a few informed cats above) its the kind you asked for......:)

The Vintage Warmer is really boss when you learn how to tweak the presets

-Chris
 
Sorry to step on your toes, sjoko2. :confused:

I was merely pointing out that "reaching" is exactly what homerec'ers do- through creativity or exploring hardware options. To that end the "truth" is always welcome. I just felt that talking about polishing turds isn't really a helpful comment. No one grows by being told they can't do it.

I don't see where my comments were at odd with yours.

Chris
 
ajgrossman said:

From a quality point of view, having had the Echo Layla 24, Aardvark Dirct Pro, and now the Midiman Delta 44, all of those A/D D/A converters and word clocks seem to work similar to each other and from a quality stand point, work very well with my setup. I don't run multiple digital devices, so I guess I don't either understand or see my need for external A/D D/A converters. Also, as I stated earlier, when I compared the quality of recordings between the preamps in my Mackie 1642 VLZ PRO and the high-end Millenia HV-3, I didn't hear a big enough difference to justify the $1,500.00 price tag of the "used" Millenia. Now that I think about it, the transparent quality of the Millenia was not going to give me what I was looking for in the first place.

So, when it comes down to it, as I think someone pointed out earlier, I don't think I have a "quality" issue here, I think I have a "coloring" issue. It's the tape coloration that I guess I am missing with digital recordings. In that case, would it make more sense to invest time and $$ into EQ, mics, vintage compressors, and maybe preamps which color the sound (the Millenia is transparent like a Great River).

I don't think I am trying to polish a turd in my quest for warm sounding recordings from my digital equipment. I think what I am getting is very very good quality, but it doesn't have the coloration I am trying to achieve.

If I am off-base here, please let me know. I think all of the information from everyone so far has been great, and I think it is all valuable. However, I have been down the "Gear Acquisition Syndrome" path before, and I need to spend my hard earned $$$ on equipment which will give me the results I am looking for.

Let me know your thoughts.

A.J.
Click to expand...

I think sjoko2 gave you VERY valid advice, and that your discounting of that advice shows that you are possibly too easily impressed with what you have already, and regardless of WHAT plugin, "trick", do dad you are given, you will be missing the point.

The Delta converters are barely adequate, EVEN WITH a stable word clock. But, you can use them.

The clocks on the average "cheap" soundcard, and yes, all Delta cards are considered "cheap" in my book, and VERY VERY VERY bad clocks. I would have never figured the difference until we installed a clock in the studio. I will openly admit I was dubious of sjoko2's opinion about how ANY converter can improve with a better clock.

So, you are tracking stuff via not so great converters, with a very unstable clock, and you want "color" and "warmth", but don't want to invest in the two things that will make the BIGGEST difference in your signal path at this point? You believe that you HAVE HIGH QUALITY, and will discount the advice of a professional that has worked on albums you have heard and probably bought? That is your business.

I will third the motion of getting better A/D/A and clocks in this case. If you track bad sound with a bad clock, adding yet more dsp to the sound to "fix" it will just make it double bad. You will never truely KNOW what is wrong with your sound until you have a stable clock for your converters.

Ed
 
Ed,

Perhaps my choice of words did not convey my message effectively enought. I did not intend to discount anyone's advice in particular. My communication is based solely on my experience to date, which is signficantly less than many of you. That is why I am here.

If I am off-base, thanks for telling me...again, that is why I am here.

With regard to the Delta products...are the converters in the Delta 44 different from those in the 1010? If not, why is the 1010 so highly regarded? You make the statement of "cheap" and "barely adequate", yet you offered no alternatives. What would you recommend and why?

I have not put any stake in the ground that I would not make an investment in external A/D D/A converters or word clock...I just did not see how an external word clock would make a difference since I don't run a lot of gear that needs to be syncd together. Perhaps I don't understand the function of a word clock.

If an investment in a high-quality A/D D/A converter and external word clock will get me the results I am seeking, than I will make the investment. Based upon my experience to date, there are a lot of recommendations for equipment that will produce a difference only an "audiophile" might notice, so I am a bit cautious.

I have no doubt that many on this board have more experience than I ever will, and again, that is why I am here. It was not my intention to disregard any specific piece of advice.

My apologies if I offended anyone...it was not my intent.
 
Hey Ed,

I remember reading about how you have a Lynx sound card somewhere in your rig.

How would you rate those in terms of A/D?

Keep in mind they use the exact same converters as most other "cheap" sound cards on the market -- the only difference, supposedly, being the stability of their internal clocks.

Would you recommend using an external clock with a typical DAW setup, or would hooking it up to a DAW kinda' be defeating the purpose?

Thanks!
 
There is one inherrent problem with all card based clocks AND converters.
It basically comes back to a big, and very underrated issue, which is the quality of the power supply.
Cards do NOT provide sufficient high quality power for a good power source, it is simply impossible to integrate a stable voltage / supply into a computer card.
Therefore it is logistically impossible to build a card based A/D, D/A, or clock, on a card.
Take this one step further and ask yourself if a quality, well balanced power supply for a converter can / should be the same as that for a clock. Once again, the answer is no. Different animal.
Therefore the only realistic solution is to use an external source of power. Either built, well isolated, into an external piece of equipment, or, as for instance is the case with the small Lucid GEN 6 clocks, use a power source remote from the unit itself.

Another example of the importance of power supply, as well as the analogue circuitry design of a converter is that a lot of the 'higher end' converters like for instance Apogee, Lucid as well as others use exactly the same chip. Yet there is a huge difference in sound between Apogee and Lucid. The difference is in the units power supplies and analogue circuits.

The above are all reasons why I always advice to first of all look at clocks and converters if you think of system improvements. Believe me, it is more important than pre's, mic or anything else. Use a Shure 57 through a well clocked system with good converters and it will sound a million times better then for instance a 6000 dollar mic with a 2000 pre recorded through a system lacking accurate clocking or converters.
My first clock, bought a long time ago, cost $8000, a fortune at the time. Now you can buy something like a GEN6, a far, far superior clock than my first one, for around $500. For that 500 bucks you get a much better sounding system - period.

Last, a lot of people have in the past commented "I tried it and didn't hear 500 bucks worth of difference". Let me try to explain why you might not. By using a good clock source your material WILL sound better going to disk, period. However, how much of the difference you hearm immediately depends on the quality of your converters and monitoring system. The better your system, the more you will hear. If, over here in the studio, I turn the master clock of, so the system defaults to the generic clock of whatever piece of gear would take the lead, most likely a Pro Tools HD192 I/O, you'd immediately think "what the fuck happened to the sound?", as you would hear the definition disappear, the high-end going to pot, and previously defined low end notes turning to a mute rumble.
However - if you can hear detail or not, getting it to disk in the highest possible quality will give you better material to work with - period, which is after all the end result everyone is after, regardless of the cost / quality of their system?

I hope that helps to explain the reasons why
 
chessrock said:
Hey Ed,

I remember reading about how you have a Lynx sound card somewhere in your rig.

How would you rate those in terms of A/D?

Keep in mind they use the exact same converters as most other "cheap" sound cards on the market -- the only difference, supposedly, being the stability of their internal clocks.

Would you recommend using an external clock with a typical DAW setup, or would hooking it up to a DAW kinda' be defeating the purpose?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

i'd bet the analog section in the lynx is worlds ahead of most 'cheap' sound cards as well...thats what is said to be the greatest factor of great conversion..i dunno myself something i've read while browsing the web...
 
Interesting, thought provoking thread.

Clocks, eh? Now I find myself interested in them, but find I have no knowledge of what's availible or what to look for. While I've know of them for a while, I figured they were mainly for syncing multiple units...

Its kind of like a lightbulb going on seeing that they make ANY A/D/A process more accurate.

Looks like I have some research to do... I'm with chessrock, here: any recommendations for where to start looking?

Take care,
Chris
 
Well, I get to use the 1010 at the studio. Frankly, it doesn't sound as good, even with the Lucid clock, and my Lynx does using it's own clock.

There is a lot more going on in A/D/A conversions than JUST the chip used for the converter. There is a whole analog circuit that is involved, and I don't find that part of the Delta's converters to be all that hot, even with an external clock.

BUT, the Delta sounds very much improved with the Lucid clock! I kept hearing how the converters would sound better with the Lucid, and finally, the studio owner decided to make the plunge. It didn't take a "audiophile" to hear the difference between the Lucid clock and the 1010's internal clock. The low end cleared up a lot and became tighter, and the high end lost a noticeable amount of grainyness. The stereo field opened up. Stuff that sounded like it was panned to 10 and 2 o'clock positions now sound like they are at 8 and 4 o'clock (regretably, this is on tracks that are actually panned all the way out!!!), so that is a very big improvement in the stereo imaging.

We make FAR better tracking and mixing decisions now with the Lucid clock. We have it running to the Alesis HD 24 too, and the converters on it improved a bit too. I find myself going for sound that have a lot more "size" to them, and am finding that allowing a bit more low mids into the sound doesn't cloud up the mix.

sjoko2 used to say that until you have a stable clock, you will be making flawed decisions about the sounds you record, and will make poorer mixing decisions. Having gone both ways now, I share that assessment fully. A quality, stable word clock has improved EVERY aspect at the studio that concerns digital audio.

I am not a MAudio fan. There is just something odd sounding about their converters to my ears. I have heard decent sounding stuff through MOTU and Creamware soundcards. I would say that both sound better than the 1010 card using an internal clock, and can imagine that either of them will only improve with a better clock for them. So, as an alternative to the Delta cards, take a look at them.

Sorry about the confusion ajgrossman. Maybe I should have read your posts a little closer and factored in the benefit of the doubt concerning any perceived "attitude" in them. My bad! Peace and goodwill towards you! :D

Ed
 
The best small clock avaialble is the Lucid GEN6. Nothing comes close to that one regarding price / accuracy.
 
Dang, you guys are quick! I post my reply, and three others beat me to it! :)

Okay, so good clocks make a difference.

There IS a difference between the analog part of any A/D/A converter.

Those two things will make possibly HUGE difference in the audio.

I am with Blue Bear. I use the oven when I can milk the client. Use the microwave when they are cheap. :D

Ed
 
How does the RME Multiface size up ^^

Would this unit come with a clock in par with the LUCID????

Im using this unit with a RNP, and RNC going through a akgc4000B.
 
Re: How does the RME Multiface size up ^^

Bstage said:
Would this unit come with a clock in par with the LUCID????

Im using this unit with a RNP, and RNC going through a akgc4000B.
Click to expand...

There is not one system that would not improve with the use of an external clock, from DAW's to stand-alone converters to gear costing hundreds of thousands.
To give you one small example, we took part in a test when the new $100.000 plus Yamaha digital live console was demonstrated, with the largest audio rental / touring company. You would think it would have a good internal clock, but when they changed to clocking it from a GEN6 the difference was unbelieveable.
 
even the herald radar 24 or Cranesong spider/hedd, benchmark and mytek stuff? damn your making me feel like charging another 500 to my credit card :D
 
Track Rat said:
VERY true on the good clock and converters. My system tightened up when I added the GenX6.
Click to expand...
I'm sure you must have said at one time, but could you tell us what converter it was that you had the improvement on?
Thanks in advance Track Rat.
Wayne

edit...
Oops. I was over on page one getting caught up.
Never mind.:D
 
Last edited:
Ok, so if I want to invest in the Lucid, I will have to dump the Delta 44 because there is no ability to use an external word clock, so...

if I understand correctly...

It is better to have a lower end sound card and interface, say a Delta 1010, along with say an external Lucid Word Clock, than a higher-end sound card and interface like an RME Hammerfall DSP with multiface and no Lucid Word Clock.

Would that be the case?

Or would it be better to invest in the RME equipment and obtain the Lucid at some later date when funds allow?

Let me know your thoughts.
 
plan b..but i think you should get a lynxtwo instead it can go up to 192khz so it'll have a longer life then the 96khz rme
 
I'd go with plan B as well - you'd just get better results.

As far as teacher's comment goes, that depends if you want to work at 192, and are prepared to live with limited track counts and have huge drives available. Personally, I'm staying at 96 for the foreseable future.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top