Want to upgrade DAW. PC or MAC???!

[cyrano]

Computing is a science, not a religion. Therefore, make your choice scientifically, not religiously.

Strange you don't follow your own advice

 

[cyrano]

under the hood there's soo much that's shared between pc and mac these days, and really they all boil down to the same memory(give or take) the same intel processors, the same ati or nvidia graphics cards

the question isn't which is better anymore; it's definitely which do you prefer.

Amen.

The only difference is the software, apart from a few nice things Apple throws in, such as lit keyboards, system wide audio integration and screen brightness controls, combined analog and optical audio out...

Maybe it's just these nice things that got a lot of producers to use Macs. I don't know.

I'd think that not having to deal with driver problems, dll hell and that kind of stuff are at least equally important. It's not the hours you work with the stuff, but the hours you lose that should be counted...

 

[Dr. Varney]

Strange you don't follow your own advice

Well, actually I have and I do... so I stand by what I say.

If you think that science is about getting it right first time then you may have misunderstood the concept of science. If you think I've contradicted myself anywhere, then please tell me about it, instead of dropping puerile hints.



Dr. V

 

[Steenamaroo]

Amen.

The only difference is the software, apart from a few nice things Apple throws in, such as lit keyboards, system wide audio integration and screen brightness controls, combined analog and optical audio out...

Maybe it's just these nice things that got a lot of producers to use Macs. I don't know.

I'd think that not having to deal with driver problems, dll hell and that kind of stuff are at least equally important. It's not the hours you work with the stuff, but the hours you lose that should be counted...

screen brightness control is a feature on my dell vostro. as is digital and analogue audio output...

but fairplay, it doesn't have a lit keyboard

 

[Dr. Varney]

But you can get lit keyboards for a PC!

And as for DLL hell and driver problems... What were we seeing only days ago, when someone posted a picture of his Mac desktop?

Dr. V

 

[cyrano]

Well, actually I have and I do... so I stand by what I say.

Windows is quite simply unsuited for professional audio. The stream has to pass through the system path, which is loaded with strong DRM in order to please the BluRay consortium. Hence you get lots of problems with internal audio not playing over the pro audio output. And you need to jump through hoops to get it around the internal path. Which is the reason why you see a lot more problems with audio on Windows.

Another problem is you can only get Windows bit-clean with a lot of work.

So, if you choose to stand by your observations, you simply haven't got all the facts, which is quite unscientific. Have you ever tried anything else? The reasoning "If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for everybody" doesn't strike me as being very scientific. And, no, the majority isn't necessarily right either.

I am a scientist by training, and manage an IT department. I deal with scientific sound measurements and analysis (vibrations and damping), not music recordings. If we'd have to do that on windows computers, we simply couldn't get the work done.

Most of the heavy lifting here is done by computers running BSD and virtualization and most of our clients run OSX. It's not as if we haven't tried Windows. When I inherited the setup all clients were Windows ones. The yearly budget for this setup is about half what it used to be, the number of computers has roughly doubled and the support staff is one third of what we used to have. Most importantly, all of our users are quite pleased with the setup. And we have NO problems with audio setups.

So, maybe the high end producers are not always running OSX, but your arguments bring nothing to the OP, even if they're laced with a scientific disguise. What's scientific about these as an argument?

Right now I'm seeing some jerk's red face through the steam, looking through the side window of his new Alpha Romeo, as a woman in a Mini Cooper burns him off at the traffic lights.

Sterling Moss actually drove a Mini in his spare time.

Another thing:

That covers software. If they asked me whether they should run Photoshop on a Mac or a PC, that would be an entirely different conversation... One that would run something like the above

I wouldn't advise them today to run this on OSX. Adobe's support for OSX has been lagging behind seriously the last couple of years. Nevertheless, most Photoshop professionals run it on a Mac...

 

[Steenamaroo]

cant comment on cyranos post, cos i have no idea what it's about,


but it has to be admitted,,,that example of the osx desktop last week.....it is a very rare sight!!

 

[Dr. Varney]

Windows is quite simply unsuited for professional audio. The stream has to pass through the system path, which is loaded with strong DRM in order to please the BluRay consortium. Hence you get lots of problems with internal audio not playing over the pro audio output. And you need to jump through hoops to get it around the internal path. Which is the reason why you see a lot more problems with audio on Windows.

Another problem is you can only get Windows bit-clean with a lot of work.

So, if you choose to stand by your observations, you simply haven't got all the facts, which is quite unscientific. Have you ever tried anything else? The reasoning "If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for everybody" doesn't strike me as being very scientific. And, no, the majority isn't necessarily right either.

I am a scientist by training, and manage an IT department. I deal with scientific sound measurements and analysis (vibrations and damping), not music recordings. If we'd have to do that on windows computers, we simply couldn't get the work done.

Most of the heavy lifting here is done by computers running BSD and virtualization and most of our clients run OSX. It's not as if we haven't tried Windows. When I inherited the setup all clients were Windows ones. The yearly budget for this setup is about half what it used to be, the number of computers has roughly doubled and the support staff is one third of what we used to have. Most importantly, all of our users are quite pleased with the setup. And we have NO problems with audio setups.

Thank you for bringing your experience into the debate. If this is so then I will simply have to re-evaluate my position on Mac/PC audio, won't I? Or will I? I didn't mention any problems with Mac audio, did I? So what's your problem?

The question is, whether any of what you have discovered translates to a small home-recording set up?

I have never had any problems with audio on Windows. Using the ASIO drivers bypasses the Windows Wave path.

So, maybe the high end producers are not always running OSX, but your arguments bring nothing to the OP, even if they're laced with a scientific disguise.

My arguments bring my opinion to the table and regardless of whether an opinion is 'scientifically' correct or not, the analogies support the argument.

If you have a problem with the argument itself, then address that, because taking the analogy out of context does nothing to support yours. If I am wrong and you are right, it is still up to the OP to decide for himself and I would expect him to consult more than one opinion before doing so.

I'm sure that now you've brought yours in, the OP will be much better armed to make a decision. I'm grateful to have been given the chance to see another side I might have missed.

The reasoning "If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for everybody" doesn't strike me as being very scientific. And, no, the majority isn't necessarily right either.

It wouldn't strike me as very scientific either, which is why I have never used that reasoning. Putting words into someone's mouth doesn't strike me as being very scientific either. It's actually quite insidious so please don't try it on here. It isn't necessary to make your point.

What's scientific about these as an argument?

Quote:
Right now I'm seeing some jerk's red face through the steam, looking through the side window of his new Alpha Romeo, as a woman in a Mini Cooper burns him off at the traffic lights.

As said, never meant as an argument in itself but a supporting analogy. I had already made my point and if you don't like it, then that's the part to address. Don't accuse me of scientific disguise. We are all at liberty to be wrong about things, without being accused of dishonesty.

You've made your technical point quite adequately, without having to pull apart my metaphors, so I regard your critisism as irrelevant.

So, if you choose to stand by your observations, you simply haven't got all the facts, which is quite unscientific.

I have sufficient facts to make an informed decision to use the PC instead of the Mac - for my own, personal reasons. I merely encourage the OP to do so, for the same.

If we must labour the term, then what might be 'scientific' about the post you're now reading, is my willingness to rethink my position on the reasons Mac has become the 'industry standard'. Not that it would make any difference to my choice, because audio quality did not come into my original reasons for preferring the PC. There are other, practical reasons for this but as I say, the ASIO set up works perfectly well for home recording.

If your findings are correct and you are confident Mac audio is intrinsically better by design, then it would have made more sense to suggest I had misjudged the character of a recording professional who only has the OP's interests at heart.

To which I might say, well I have come across enough people who feel less inclineed to help and encourage the amateur to do his thing than to foist their 'industry standards' on them, without consideration for their actual needs and budget. Sometimes you have to move through different worlds, in order to give the best advice for varying levels of expertise. Would you not agree with that?

Just don't misread my point. What I was trying to express with the line you're obsessing over, is the importance of deciding for yourself, on the best evidence available, rather than because you've been told by one person; hence the loose phrasing of words like: 'religion' and 'science'. I didn't expect him to take the machine apart to examine it with an osciloscope and that wasn't what I was alluding to, either. I also didn't expect a scientist to not see the distinction between arguments and metaphors - but hey, life is full of surprises.

I could understand this if I had gone off on a negative rant about Macs and how PCs are better but at no point have I stated anything of the sort. If you must quote me, then do me the courtesy of including:

You can have a crap PC or you can have a fantastic PC. Macs can only be of Apple Macintosh standard, because only Apple Macintosh build them.

and

Right now, they are both perfectly solid platforms for music (as long as a PC is built right). I have my reasons for preferring the PC but I will not tell you to stick to it for any other reason than because it is what you're used to.

and

Macs are safe. That's actually why I don't like them, but I wouldn't say YOU shouldn't have one. It's my choice.

Another thing:

I wouldn't advise them today to run this (Photoshop) on OSX. Adobe's support for OSX has been lagging behind seriously the last couple of years. Nevertheless, most Photoshop professionals run it on a Mac...

Most graphic professionals used to run it on Macs... Of all the DTP professionals I have known, they started out on Macs and this was part of the reasoning behind not trying a PC. I think it's hard to dispute, people get comfortable with what they have been using to for a long time. I once considered buying a Mac myself until I realised, for what I wanted it for, it was extra cost with no advantage. In fact, for me, a positive disadvantage.

Kind regards

Dr. V

 

[suprstar]

....yup a majority of studios use pro tools because that's what many cut their teeth on, not because its better...

Exactly, I use Cubase cuz that's what I know, not cuz it's vastly superior to any other DAW..

 

[suprstar]

Windows is quite simply unsuited for professional audio. The stream has to pass through the system path, which is loaded with strong DRM in order to please the BluRay consortium.

Meh... Vista or 7 maybe, I've heard stories about disabling hd video/audio outputs, but I have no prob's with my xp box. Mac's aren't so much better at audio than pc's, that might have been true 10 years ago, but I don't believe that's the case so much any more.

 

[axeman_ukl]

forgive if i'm wrong but this strong drm , i would have though only applies to windows media player ,if it does not then my motu card does a sterling job at latency of under 5 ms.

hey i could be wrong stranger things have happend.

as to the mac /pc debait go with which ever you like at the homerecording level both will do a fine job , personally i would go with a pc and spend more money on a very good sound card for the same amount of money as a top of the line mac ,this would get you further and better recordings.but this is just what i would do

 

[Dr. Varney]

Well, whether this guy's right or not, you've gotta see the funny side... It's a good job my career doesn't depend on me writing scientific technical journals on audio.

Dr. V

 

[FLYcrash]

Here's a related ignorant question...

I use Linux at work/school. It uses much less CPU and memory than Windows (don't know about OS X) just keeping the operating system and user interface running. That is very important for what I do (big fat multiprocessor physics simulations), for which I get to use more than 95% of the clock cycles for the job. It would seem that this would be useful for audio work too. Why don't I hear much about people recording on Linux machines? Is it a lack of software?

 

[Soundbaby]

pc vs. mac

I worked with pc and Cubase then switched to Mac and Logic.
Both are good and have their pluses and minuses. A mac is more stable from my experience and pc + Cubase is really easy to edit tracks with.
Logic comes with tons of great sounds and samples.
i have never used FL studio, but i know it is not highly regarded. If you are serious about making music upgrade to an industry standard.

 

[Dr. Varney]

If you are serious about making music upgrade to an industry standard.

On the face of it, that would seem like really good advice but it strikes me there are people in here who are quite serious about making music, who do so, without using the 'industry standard'. We discussed this in another thread somewhere. By my humble reckoning, the industry standard is about having some form of standardisation in the way people do things and the machinery they use. It's as important for building transferable skills as it is for making sure files and methods are compatible, between professional studios.

I don't know if this is a worthwhile point to make in relation to music making but in the web-industry, there seemed to be some confusion about what was truly industry standard or, more to the point, what it should have been. Take Dreamweaver, for instance. As CSS became the industry standard way of doing things, the college I attended were still touting Dreamweaver as the ind. stnd. software for building web pages. They were still teaching students to build with tables and frames, which itself is most industry UNstandard! When I was looking for a web publisher, the amount of people I phoned - professional freelancers that is - who were still using (or, should I say: abusing*) Dreamweaver was frightening! I had learned just enough CSS and read enough web-standards reports to know this was the right way of doing things - and yet the colleges were still teaching people to push code around with a stick instead of understanding it properly. You went onto Macromedias site and there it was - touted as THE industry standard software. A thing like that is enough to kill the bloody industry!

As soon as I ditched this bloated piece of crap, I was starting to learn enough code to create elegantly hand-coded pages that validated with the W3C. Still a lot to learn but at least I was on the right path.

Now, the only reason I had used DW in the first place, was because it was touted as industry standard. Obviously, it's hard to respect a term when it is abused so frequently, as it was then, by people marketing a product and by ignorant teachers, unwilling to widen their skills. It's a mistake I won't make again in a hurry. You live and you learn.

I'm not saying for a minute this applies to audio in exactly the same way - (so please, don't start...!) but maybe you can see why I am wary of big, all encompassing terms, until I have investigated what they actually mean to the precise situation at hand.

I see that there are one or two professional bands who have produced their work in Garage Band. Does this now mean that Garage Band is to be considered 'industry standard'? Probably not, any more than you can have an 'industry standard washboard or kazoo' but given the outcome of their success, does this not mean we should take the term with a slight pinch of salt? I mean, Standards are necessary for an industry to function as an industry but getting too hung up on big, all encompassing phrases, without understanding their organic subtleties, as they apply to real situations, doesn't always help us.

Dr. V

* (it will do CSS, albeit very clumsily!)

 

[cyrano]

screen brightness control is a feature on my dell vostro. as is digital and analogue audio output...

but fairplay, it doesn't have a lit keyboard

It's not integrated. As in "it doesn't work if Windows is not loaded"...

 

[Steenamaroo]

what does that mean???

are you saying i can't dim my bios and as such a mac is better?


or are you saying the dimmer function is windows specific,
cos it works just fine in linux.

*edit, i can use the dimmer in bios*

 

[cyrano]

Here's a related ignorant question...

I use Linux at work/school. It uses much less CPU and memory than Windows (don't know about OS X) just keeping the operating system and user interface running. That is very important for what I do (big fat multiprocessor physics simulations), for which I get to use more than 95% of the clock cycles for the job. It would seem that this would be useful for audio work too. Why don't I hear much about people recording on Linux machines? Is it a lack of software?

It"s certainly not a lack of software. But most people get confused. Starting with the question "Which distro should I use?" And another fairly large group only knows Windows. They seem to think PC's are the only computers in existence.

Audio doesn't even need that much of CPU. Compare to video and you 'll see why an average computer should have no problem with even 16 tracks of audio.

The problem arises with bad hardware. And that's why Windows can have serious stability problems. Even big brands (from the consumer point) as Packard Bell have been convicted of selling faulty hardware. That was years ago and it's probably why they left the US market. But they still are at it, at least in Europe. Recently, another very big brand was convicted for selling secondhand and broken hardware. Was it Dell? I really don't remember, sorry.

If you can consider doing a lot of research and are willing to pick your parts by hand, you can build something a lot better than the "better" PC and even better, performance wise, than an Mac. And it 'll probably be more reliable and longer lasting.

But most people just want something that works, out of the box. And that's where Apple shines.

I don't like the sh*tty things Apple is doing with our privacy (iAds), but hey, that's what the industry as a whole does. And if you only wake up to privacy concerns when Apple is the perpetrator, you seem to have a problem. And I'm also waiting for the first Real Big security problem, cause it's a certainty that it will happen. Hell, it could be even happening now, with the appstore. Only, this is an Apple "management" problem, it's not even really technological, just errr... human?

 

[cyrano]

forgive if i'm wrong but this strong drm , i would have though only applies to windows media player ,if it does not then my motu card does a sterling job at latency of under 5 ms.

You're right, off course. But that's something in the Motu driver bypassing the system audio path. First problem: browsers, media players and other consumer stuff tends to follow the system path. Hence the problem "I can't play YouTube video's sound over my monitors..." OSX doesn't have that. Off course, OSX doesn't have BluRay either...

as to the mac /pc debait go with which ever you like at the homerecording level both will do a fine job , personally i would go with a pc and spend more money on a very good sound card for the same amount of money as a top of the line mac ,this would get you further and better recordings.but this is just what i would do

Everyone certainly should use what she/he is comfy with...

And you don't need top-notch CPU power for audio unless you rely a lot on plugins. More RAM is much more interesting, in my eyes.

 

[cyrano]

what does that mean???

are you saying i can't dim my bios and as such a mac is better?


or are you saying the dimmer function is windows specific,
cos it works just fine in linux.

*edit, i can use the dimmer in bios*

Then you really have an integrated screen brightness control. Audio too?

You know, it can be done, I've always wondered why almost no manufacturer was doin' it...