Volume level question

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Powerbastard

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A little background:
I write/record instrumental metal and use Cubase. I use Beatcraft to create drums and when i import to cubase the file is nice and loud and doesn't clip, but i lower the track volume to -1.0 just to give me some room. When i record guitars, the wav is clipping at around +2db so i bring em down using the track levels. My final mixes ride between -1.0db and 0.0db, so they're not clipping. There are usually one or two leads or melodies that don't seem to sit right in the mix so i normalize to 100% and that seems to smooth things out.

I always put new songs on my ipod and listen to em in my car so i can see if anything sticks out in the mix.

What i don't understand, and would like to change, is why the volume level of my tracks are so much lower than other songs on my ipod. Granted, these other songs were recorded in fancy studios by professionals, but isn't one non-clipping, 0db-max recording the same as the next? I've spent hours reading about compressors, limiters, mastering....and no matter how i adjust things, any increase in volume i am able to achieve always results in clipping. The result is no different than if i just raise the output level on the mixer in Cubase: Higher volume and mega-clipping.
Without re-explaining how compressors work and what the different knobs do, can anyone give me any advice on how to get a louder finished product? At this point i'd welcome a logical, easy-to-understand explanation even if the solution isn't something i am equipped/qualified to do myself! Also, i've imported a high-dollar professional recording, and a song my band recorded at a local studio into Cubase to compare volume levels and had to raise my recording by 3db to get it about even with those other two.

Any insight would be MASSIVELY appreciated!!!

Here's a link to my tunes, for reference
POWERBASTARD's sounds on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
 
Powerbastard said:
When i record guitars, the wav is clipping at around +2db so i bring em down using the track levels.
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That wont help. It's still clipped even if you do turn it down later.
You need to turn down the gain on the way in so that it doesn't clip at the preamp, or in the software with your faders at zero.
 
Massive Master said:
Work on getting a quality product first - A monkey with a limiter can make something loud.

First things first - You're tracking too hot. WAY too hot. Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles | MASSIVE Mastering

And if you're still bored after that:

Why Aren't My Mixes 'Loud' Like Commercial CD's? | Articles, Rants | MASSIVE Mastering
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links. And my apologies for not supplying you with a professional recording before posting in the NEWBIE forum. :/



Steenamaroo said:
That wont help. It's still clipped even if you do turn it down later.
You need to turn down the gain on the way in so that it doesn't clip at the preamp, or in the software with your faders at zero.
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To be honest (and i'm sure i'm not the only one) my main concern at the outset was having my guitar and the tracks i've already recorded at a comparable level. The guitar tracks didn't sound horrible so i let it be and started tracking. I've got 100 riffs and melodies and arrangements clogging up my brain so as soon as i put something down that didn't sound completely blown out, I stopped tweaking settings and just started unloading! I'm still not interested in delving into equipment upgrades and major changes to the way i record but i'd like to clean things up a bit so i seriously appreciate the suggestions. Can you give me a target range for where my tracks should be on the front end? That would rock. Then the next time i record something I can sorta start at the beginning and hopefully improve my final product.
 
You are recording too hot to begin with. It also seem like you are setting your recording levels to get a mix volume that sounds right to you. (why else would you record tracks that are clipping?)

Recording level, monitoring volume and mix level are all completely different things and should be dealt with separately.

Record the tracks at an average level of -18dbfs. This means that the sustain of a note is at -18dbfs (about half way up the meter), the peaks can go anywhere they fall, as long as it doesn't clip.

Then after you've recorded everything, then you can worry about mixing.

After you are don't mixing, then you can worry about the volume level of the finished mix. Mixes are not supposed to be as loud as mastered commercial CDs. There is a step after the mixing process where that happens.

With the stuff that is already recorded, you can just use the trim control on each channel to pull the level back about 10db or so.
 
After reading the links provided above, I decided to record something at the levels suggested. As i said before I build drums in Beatcraft then import a wav into Cubase. I recorded one guitar track to see what i was working with and realized that my guitar level is not far off...it came in peaking at -10db, waveform is small, and the volume level is good. It's the drum wav that is wacky. The drum track is peaking at -2db, waveform is fatter than the guitar, but the volume level is 4db quieter than the guitar track. How the heck can the drum wav be peaking 8db higher and sound 4db lower??? The drum samples i'm using are kinda noisy but i've tried using better/cleaner samples and the finished product sounds flat. My entire set-up cost me a grand total of $100...i think i'll just leave well enough alone and keep turning that volume knob.
 
Drums are almost all peak and no sustain. Our ears don't hear peaks as volume, we hear the sustain as the volume. Drums peaking at -2dbfs really isn't that bad. I tend to have them peak at -6dbfs or so.

Recording levels for drums and other instruments with large peaks have to be handled differently when you are only using a peak level meter, like the ones in DAWs.

The short explanation is that the peak level of anything doesn't matter as long as it doesn't clip. The average level or sustained level is the thing to concentrate on. That is what makes the most difference to the sound. Highly percussive instruments don't have much sustain, so you can just set the peak level somewhere comfortably below clipping and call it a day.


Just an example, if you record a snare drum, piano, violin, distorted electric guitar and a sine wave all at the same peak level, the snare drum will be the quietest, followed by the piano, electric guitar, violin and the sine wave will tear your head off. The sine wave will sound almost 20db louder than the snare drum because of how our ears perceive volume.
 
Thanks for the great explanation, Farview. Makes perfect sense to me. It also reaffirms what you and others said about tracking guitars at -18db. And i DO realize that recording levels and monitoring levels are completely different things...but a lot of times i'm writing while recording and having to constantly adjust levels while tracking stops the creative process in it's tracks. I think it's obvious i'm not trying to win any awards here. The more i record the more i want to try to improve the quality of my recordings so i really appreciate youz guys for helping me understand some of the things i'm trying to improve.
 
Powerbastard said:
And i DO realize that recording levels and monitoring levels are completely different things...but a lot of times i'm writing while recording and having to constantly adjust levels while tracking stops the creative process in it's tracks.
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The best way to get around this is to have stuff set up ahead of time, or use presets. For example, if you use the same drum program, the levels coming out of it are probably the same every time. So you can set up a preset that gives you a good scratch mix of the drums. Then, every time you record your guitar, do it the same way with all the knobs and levels set the same. Have those levels in the monitor mix preset as well.

Once you come up with a method that works consistently, you don't even have to think about it and can just concentrate on playing.
 
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