vocal compression????

[mattkw80]

I'm outta here

I know VERY LITTLE ABOUT COMPRESSION.

Last post from me on this thread, as it's starting to loop in a circle.


Summary :

Thread poster wanted an answer or to be pointed in the direction of an answer.

Some people tried to help.

Some people (as happens everyday on this BBS) went the opposite route :

1. They didn't like his question
2. Didn't like that the question had already been answered in the past
3. Told him “If you would searched, you’d already know” when in fact by posting he WAS searching (how absurd)

And my personal favorite :

4. The question is too variable, relevant, and infinite so THERE IS NO ANSWER.

To the thread poster - I guess your screwed for an answer. I can’t believe you would ask such a thing, and waste these gentleman’s valuable time. They had to reach for their keyboards and type.

I know very little about compression, so I am bowing out of this thread now, as it’s just getting stupid.

I do know when I hear smug answers, lazy answers, and answers thrown out by insecure people with inflated ego’s.

(I don’t mean : SouthSide Glen with the ego thing, I think he has advanced knowledge. But, also, he’s gone way over my head in some theory, so I don’t know if he’s going to be able to simplify his point, and help the thread poster. If you can keep up to him, his info will probably help you).

Thanks to everyone who tried to help him.

Warning to rookies :

You should already know the answer to the question your going to ask or your going to piss these guys of, so stop wasting their time, and stop trying to use the forum for educational purposes.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

(I don’t mean : SouthSide Glen with the ego thing, I think he has advanced knowledge. But, also, he’s gone way over my head in some theory, so I don’t know if he’s going to be able to simplify his point, and help the thread poster. If you can keep up to him, his info will probably help you).

Matt, I'm sorry you're bowing out before you understand the answer. The answer is that there IS NO SIMPLE ANSWER to that kind of question.

When you do learn more about compression, you'll understand. If you're unwilling to accept that in the meantime, well, I've tried my best to convince you otherwise. And I am sorry about that because I also understand that unwillingness just moves you farther from understanding, not closer.

Best of luck (honestly, not sarcastically). When you do come out the other side of the compression tunnel, I'll be the first to shake your hand and smile.


G.

 

[blueroommusic]

shut the f% up SOUTHSIDE GLEN. I didn't give him that broad of a guideline. When you can turn a ratio knob in the blink of an eye to get a desired setting, it's not rocket science. Just turn it till you hear what you are looking for. That's it.

I am so sick of some of the characters on this board. Some of the pros on here have been extremely helpful for me. And I haven't had any nasty comments until now. This is not the "i'm better than you, and i'm going to make sure you know it board". I know most of us in the audio industry have met a thousand dickheads.

This is a board where people of all skill levels, who love music and the art of recording can all come and learn from each other. So keep it to yourself; and while your at take your rep points and shove them up your arse.

Sorry if I came off like a jerk, but some people just bring it out in me.

 

[Dogman]

anyone have any good tips on basic compression settings for hip hop vocals? what should the threshold, ratio, attack, and relase be set to?

I would hesitate to give you specific specs, just because I have found that with my singing, I might use different settings, at least slightly, even if I try and do teh song the same. Slioghtly different dynamics, I guess. So, first thing I do, is save a copy of the original, and keep it safe. That way if I screw all things up, my original is safe....
Second, play with the compression, and see what extreme setting might do to the track. Very compressed....-24 or more, and 20-1 or more will probably kill the track, but gives you an idea of what happens. Then, play with something that does a lot less, maybe -3, and a 3:1 ratio. Should be subtle, but you don't really need to hear the compression. You are looking for good, overall sound.
I am a terrible singer, so I track with a small amount of compression....-5, and a 3:1 ratio. Sometimes I don't have to do any more, but most likely, I will compress a bit more. But, that is just me. Start small. and see what happens.
Ed

I forgot about attack and release times, but I start with those fairly quick, and try ab=nd adjust to what seems to suit the song. Too quick might kill some of the dynamics, and too long a release means the compressor is constantly working. Might make for a "pumping" sound.

I guess what it really means, is start with something very basic, but don't hesitate to experiment. You won't get it right the first time, and it might take a while. It's like any instrument, or software. It takes some time, and some experimentation. Most of the advice you get will be good, but won't work for all people in all instances. It's just meant to give you some reference points.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I didn't give him that broad of a guideline.

8-40:1 is exactly the range you gave him for "rhymin'" (whatever in God's name that means). 8-40:1 is 80% of the total possible range on many compressors, and actually beyond the operating range on many. So in essence what you recommended was "somewere in 8 out of 10 of the possible reduction setings you'll find the right one."

Don't blame the translator for what you said yourself.

G.

 

[blueroommusic]

you are exactly right; in hindsight I should have made it more clear. 8-40:1 does represent a broad range of compression. It also is on the heavy side;

sorry about flipping out SSGlen; It's been a long month for me, and my studio's opening date is fast approaching...I didn't mean to be an asshole, so if it's any consolation.....sorry.

 

[giraffe]

if i lived in FL i'd be irritable too.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

sorry about flipping out SSGlen; It's been a long month for me, and my studio's opening date is fast approaching...I didn't mean to be an asshole, so if it's any consolation.....sorry.

No harm, no foul, blue. Good luck with the opening! That's always a nervous but fun time. Have a HUGE party, but keep the champagne away from the faders.

G.

 

[giraffe]

i'm going to lobby all makers of softwhare and hardware compressors to remove the numbers (except ratio)

this would help, i think, people that occasionally (like me) still get hug up on numbers.

i prefer my compressers with the fake nob interace
(i also like to turn the meters off if it's an option)

 

[The Engineer]

Giraffe, I just listened to the music on your soundclick page for the first time. I love your songs!

Sorry for being off topic. Though I've never used a ratio past 4:1, I just tried a 8:1 on some rap vocals and it actually sounded pretty good. But to be on topic, Glen did provide the best information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattkw80
And in this book, in their own words, they give the reader starting points in compressing audio.

They give Tips, Tricks, and starting points for Drums, Piano's. Vocals, Bass, Guitar. They even give insight into the famous "New York" compression trick.

Here's a quick quote for you "Vocal: A good starting place for a lead vocal is 4:1 ratio, medium attack and release, with a threshold set for about 4 to 6 dB of gain reduction."

You don't have to take it from me, but you might want to listen to the advice of the mixers in the book.?
Please allow me to quote myself from a post earlier in this thread which you apparently did not read any closer than you are reading that handbook:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yours Truely
Matt, you're right that "handbook" book is a great read, as are all of the books in that series. I've read and taken notes from all three of them myself. You're also right that those books contain a lot of snippets from a lot of big name engineers where they say "I'll start with 4:1 compresssion on the widget and a 2kHz boost on the frenzel." What they're not telling you is where they wind up, and that they wind up in a different location virtually every time. They are just used to starting at a certain point in certain situations because that's how their ears and hands are best trained to work the gear they use, not because it's necessarily a better place than any other to start. If one has an untrained ear and is inexperienced on a given type of gear, however, those starting points are no more advantageous than picking halfway up on all controls as a "preset" starting point.


You're right, I don't have the credentials thet they do. But I dio know the difference between starting points and ending points, and that starting points are useless information if one doesn't understand how to move from those starting points.

Do the math, Matt. You can start at 4:1 @ -10dBFS This might give you the "4-6dB or reduction" that you quote above. You can also start at 5:1 @ -8dbFS and (if the signal is of the right type) and still get the same amount of overall reduction that is recommended by that quote. Yet the sound will be entirely different. Even more to the point, that's where he starts at. What he doesn't say is that he can end up anywhere.

That kind of information sells a lot of books because it's fun to read for fellow engineers, but it's next to useless to use as a textbook if one doesn't know how to use a compressor. And if one does know how to use a compressor, then that information is of entertainment value only.

No, Matt, the problem remains not that there is a lack of viable knowledge in the answers on this board, but that there is a lack of desire and understanding on the part of many of the questioners to admit that just because one has access to a piece of gear or software doesn't mean that it's as easy to use as picking a channel on your television set.

It just doesn't work that way. And the sooner that rookies understand that is the real physics of the situation, the sooner they can move on and really learn what to do and not to do.

To use your martial arts example, don't get pissed at us for insisting on "wax on, wax off" when they ask how to do a "flying crane".

We're not trying to keep information from rookies, we're only trying to steer them in the right direction and teach them the right way, that's all.

G.

Good point.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Excellent post, SSG.

As for me, I'm done with this thread. I should know better than to argue with certain types of people; they have way more experience at what they do than I do.

 

[giraffe]

Excellent post, SSG.

As for me, I'm done with this thread. I should know better than to argue with certain types of people; they have way more experience at what they do than I do.

some day you'll get there Harvey.
hehehehe

Giraffe, I just listened to the music on your soundclick page for the first time. I love your songs!

thank you, only the bottom two songs are my band, the rest are songs i've recorded.

 

[The Engineer]

Well, I only listened to the top song. Fairground Ave, they're pretty good. I just listened to "Break" by your band. Whoever is the singer has a EXCELLENT voice, I love that shit. Sorry to be off topic again!

 

[karl_danger]

get a distressor, put it in opto mode and adjust input and output to level. you can squash the shit out of them and you wont hear it.....in my opinion the most beautiful and versatile compressor out there

 

[nonfat]

I know VERY LITTLE ABOUT COMPRESSION.

Last post from me on this thread, as it's starting to loop in a circle.


Summary :

Thread poster wanted an answer or to be pointed in the direction of an answer.

Some people tried to help.

Some people (as happens everyday on this BBS) went the opposite route :

1. They didn't like his question
2. Didn't like that the question had already been answered in the past
3. Told him “If you would searched, you’d already know” when in fact by posting he WAS searching (how absurd)

And my personal favorite :

4. The question is too variable, relevant, and infinite so THERE IS NO ANSWER.

To the thread poster - I guess your screwed for an answer. I can’t believe you would ask such a thing, and waste these gentleman’s valuable time. They had to reach for their keyboards and type.

I know very little about compression, so I am bowing out of this thread now, as it’s just getting stupid.

I do know when I hear smug answers, lazy answers, and answers thrown out by insecure people with inflated ego’s.

(I don’t mean : SouthSide Glen with the ego thing, I think he has advanced knowledge. But, also, he’s gone way over my head in some theory, so I don’t know if he’s going to be able to simplify his point, and help the thread poster. If you can keep up to him, his info will probably help you).

Thanks to everyone who tried to help him.

Warning to rookies :

You should already know the answer to the question your going to ask or your going to piss these guys of, so stop wasting their time, and stop trying to use the forum for educational purposes.

This post is ridiculous - especially the last "warning." Nothing more than emotional rantings from a brat that didn't get his way. Countless hours have been devoted to this board in the pursuit of helping less experienced hobby recordists. Say thank you and feel blessed.
The advice in this thread (and countless others on the same topic) are pearls of wisdom. I hope the original poster has been able to glean that the art and science of compression is not absolute and that no one jumped on his case about asking the question. But they did tell him to learn what the controls do and learn to make decisions for himself. This will make him a far better engineer than thinking, "Okay, I have a vocal track here - I'll set the compressor thusly because I read this setting on an internet bulletin board that said this is how you compress a vocal track."
Matt, maybe here's something you can understand. I'm assuming that you've had sex before. Could you have read in a book what it was like or the proper techniques to have a meaningful experience? How to make your partner reach climax and feel good and safe about the experience? Then, suppose you had sex with someone else. Would the same techniques/emotions/subtle innuendo apply to a different partner? Would the techniques and emotions she used on her last dude apply to you? I trust that you can see some underlying analogy to the art of mixing.

Another thing that occurs to me - someone in a previous thread mentioned the advice from the pros in The Mixing Engineers Handbook. I read this book often. Realize that these guys have developed "starting points" for themselves that work with the way that THEY record and mix tracks - or they are mixing tracks recorded by world class engineers that know how to get the most out of the artist and equipment. Chances are better than good that if one of them got their hands on a recording of your voice that you had done in your room with your equipment, they would use different compression and eq than they would use if they recorded your voice themselves in their room with their equipment. This underscores that the source track means everything and is the point of departure for any kind of processing. I cannot see how this would be a difficult concept to grasp.

 

[corban]

I know VERY LITTLE ABOUT COMPRESSION.

Last post from me on this thread, as it's starting to loop in a circle.


Summary :

Thread poster wanted an answer or to be pointed in the direction of an answer.

Some people tried to help.

Some people (as happens everyday on this BBS) went the opposite route :

1. They didn't like his question
2. Didn't like that the question had already been answered in the past
3. Told him “If you would searched, you’d already know” when in fact by posting he WAS searching (how absurd)

And my personal favorite :

4. The question is too variable, relevant, and infinite so THERE IS NO ANSWER.

I am practically laughing my ass off at this. If you don't know a lot about compression, how do you think you can answer the question better than people who do? Maybe someday you'll take flying lessons and in class you'll ask your instructor whether it's best to go up or down when you're flying. I hope you get upset when he tells you it depends on the situation, and go whine to the school about how lazy their instructor is.

 

[giraffe]

get a distressor, put it in opto mode and adjust input and output to level. you can squash the shit out of them and you wont hear it.....in my opinion the most beautiful and versatile compressor out there

yea, and cheap too.

 

[xstatic]

Believe me, you will hear it. Thats why us Distressor owners bought Distressors. It certainly wasn't for invisible compression.