Using click tracks: pro's and con's?

[mshilarious]

I NEVER SAID CLICKS PREVENTED GROOVES!!!!! You brought up grooves, you talk about grooves, but I did not until you forced me!

Let's review:

You have to play off of it, groove to it, make it part of the song and then remove it before anyone puts more parts down.

I have no problem with that. But why is a click a precondition for a groove? That makes no sense.

You obviously don't understand how a groove is created. The click is something that you ebb and flow against to create the feel. The object is not to be 100% on top of the click all the time.

OK, I still had not used the word groove. At this point, I was talking about dynamics, which is playing loud or soft. Nothing to do with grooves. In this quote, you say a groove is an ebb and a flow, but now you say it isn't a slowing and speeding? That's the same thing! EITHER WAY I DON'T CARE! I DID NOT BRING UP GROOVES!!

But since you had twice brought up grooves, and accused me of not understanding them, I replied:

Good musicians listen to each other and create the groove. Yes, a good drummer can groove to a click, and anticipate the dynamic changes of the song without hearing his bandmates.

Right there I stipulate your position about grooves. My comment about dynamics is UNRELATED to grooves. Again, that's loud or soft, not leading or trailing the beat.

Finally even when you groove to a click, you're still forced back on the 1, at least every couple of measures.

To which you respond:

A groove is not from speeding up and slowing down inside of a measure. It comes from changing the relative placement of the notes to the constant.

That's not what I meant, although those are the same thing (see your ebb and flow comment). With the click, you cannot slow down for four or eight measures, and then return to tempo without doing the programming upfront. I think that's a waste for a well rehearsed band.


Look, I don't know why I pissed you off by not liking clicks. However, I am not a slacker, nor an idiot. I have been playing for 18 years, and I know what a groove is. You're just going to have to accept that some capable musicians don't like clicks. I can accept the opposite.

I've been where you are, I used to believe that it sucked the life out of music. Then I was enlightened. The world opened up, and with practice, the click made the tracks stronger, my reputation better, my wallet fuller, and my life better.

First off, I never play for money, only do volunteer FOH, and only record what I want. I've worked on a couple of other people's recordings, but never for pay. I intend to preserve my amateur status.

I am not going to conform my music to a click, unless I am performing a baroque piece where the style of the period demands it.

Right now I have a metronome on my desk. It makes me neither happy nor sad.

 

[mshilarious]

OK, my last post, I've said WAAAY too much on this thread. Tear this up all you like:

To give my loyal opponents the benefit of the doubt, I just went at one of my old favorites, JS Bach's Prelude #1 in C from Book 1 of the Well-Tempered Clavier. The Master was silent about tempo, but andante has become traditional. I went on the upper end at 96. Actually I used to prefer this a little faster, I think Landowska's performance was a bit north of that, and I recall Jarrett was practically allegro.

But I digress. Chops aren't what they used to be, so I slowed down. Tried it with metronome, and with and without foot. I vastly preferred the foot version, clearly less perfectly timed, but the dynamics were better, the phrasing was better, and the experience was far more enjoyable. Sans pied was much more open, probably too much so. I would probably rehearse if I was recording until the foot version worked without the foot, which is where I was 14 years ago when I did lots of that sort of thing. But I don't even have a real classical guitar anymore.

Then I tried bits of some contemporary Russian classical piece I learned ages ago, don't remember composer or title. It was intended to be rubato, it was completely silly timed to the metronome.

But I had no problem playing with the 'nome. It was just boring, that's all.

It is interesting to set a radically different tempo for a particular piece, and force yourself to that. But that's more of an exercise. I admit it did work well for Saint-Saens in the elephant and tortoise parts of Carnaval des Animaux, but my recording of that isn't strictly kept to a single largo pace (Dutoit, Montreal).

Speaking of Saint-Saens, I consider Le Cygne from that piece to be the finest melody ever written. Play that piece to a click and you will savage its fragile beauty.

 

[Farview]

Ebbing and flowing is not speeding up and slowing down. It is placing your hits in front of or behind the click to illicit the desired feel.

What does playing to a click have to do with dynamics?

I do set up the click to do tempo and time signature changes. It really does help when you are toggling between 4/4, 5/4, and 11/16 in the same 9 minute epic.

Please don't take any of this personally. If you are doing this for fun and are happy, wonderful.

I run into people everyday who have bought into the myth that a click track will kill the music. They say that they are serious about making it, meanwhile they make excuses for not doing something that takes a little more work. All that talk about performances being fixed in Protools, The truth of the matter is that the songs have to be played to a click and have to be pretty damn close in order for them to be fixed convincingly. If you want to be a pro you need to know how to do this. peroid.

I'm sorry I took my anger out on you.

 

[BentRabbit]

I didn't say that you couldn't groove, I implied that you didn't know how a groove works. (mechanically)

It's true that you don't need to know how it works to accomplish it, but if you do know, you can use it to your advantage. It will also stop annoying you once you realize what is going on.

I've been where you are, I used to believe that it sucked the life out of music. Then I was enlightened. The world opened up, and with practice, the click made the tracks stronger, my reputation better, my wallet fuller, and my life better.

Walk towards the light.

Couldn't have said it better...
It's like those weird prints that just look like random colors and chaos, but everyone tells you that when you stop 'trying' to see what's really there, THEN you'll see the hidden image... After that, it's all you CAN see and you'll wonder why you never saw the 'hidden' image before...

The music will still breathe...

 

[guhlenn]

The arguments of mshilarious remind me of the discusion that people from music college (around here called "conservatorium") don't feel the music cuz they know their theory. uh Yeah. When you know it's minor you don't feel the depression anymore...
A conductor normally has spot on timing or is a lousy conductor. your argument goes out the window.

If a click kills the breath of your music you should practise more with the click. You are to nervouse trying to keep up. Take a deep breath and start over. And btw; i see recording not as a creative process, recording is to capture what is there... and do it the best way possible. If your song contains tempo or measure changes (my sonar tempo and measure lists are long...) you should adjust your click. Simple as that.

 

[guhlenn]

recording not as creative process ...


recording should be replaced by tracking. Sorry. Don't get upset.

 

[mshilarious]

OK sorry I lied . . .

After rereading this thread, I have a lot more sympathy for the commercial studio owner. It stuns me that people would come into your studio, screw up, and cavalierly ask you to fix it. What do these people do live?

It would take me a very long time to create clicks with all the requisite tempo changes, especially since I compose partly on paper, and partly while recording. I could screw up timing three or five times and still come out ahead of programming the click.

Finally, I am a huge proponent of music theory, and I am on record on the Songwriting board with that position.

PS I really like those 3D images.

 

[Farview]

What do these people do live?

Technically, they suck. During a live performance, people listen with their eyes as well. Not a lot of non musicians notice this kind of stuff, especially drunk non musicians.

 

[Secret Clubhous]

. And if you got into music to get laid, learn to sing, you don't have to haul around all that equipment.

Great analysis of "groove creation", Farview.

But are you implying that one needs "equipment" in order to get laid?

Maybe you shouldn't answer that...

 

[guhlenn]

LOL.

mshilarious, whenever you compose during recording i can imagine a click hindering you. However, i have never had the luxury of either composing mysefl while i the studio or recording a band that pays me to sit aroudn and watch while they are creating songs. Would be fun though.

OH and a click works really great for scaring the fuck out of people who don't rehearse enough. (like one of my bandmates... )

 

[Blink 182]

i personally love playing to a click. i dont like any other sounds either, just a standard click. i feel it gives me more of an opportunity to think about my playing, with no distractions. when playing with a band you do get carried away and start to maybe fill more than you would, and that may be great live but i dont think its good for recording. i also like the precision playing with a click gives. this is probably just to do with the style of music i play, but when you have a perfectly in time drum track it makes everything a whole lot easier. a problem ive had with a click is when ive been using awful headphones and its been too quiet. then it wasn't so great, because i was concentrating on hearing the click rather than playing. when i got my new headphones though, i turned it up nice and loud and i can just concentrate on my playing, nothing else. i know groove is important in alot of other genres of music, but for me precision and accuracy are more important.

 

[guhlenn]

It's not a question of either groove or click. It's grooving on the click ...

 

[Farview]

Great analysis of "groove creation", Farview.

But are you implying that one needs "equipment" in order to get laid?

Maybe you shouldn't answer that...

I'm implying that one needs less equipment to get laid. Thus, be a singer.

 

[BrettB]

It's not a question of either groove or click. It's grooving on the click ...

I totally agree. I ALWAYS record on a click, I only avoid it if there's no other way around it, like live recording.

A good musician knows how to play on click. One who isn't comfortable working on a click is not likely going to do lots better without it. It's dreadful to hear songs where the end tempo doesn't match the beginning.

 

[guhlenn]

Jason ,

are you telling me that my investment was achieving the opposite of what i expected? Why the hell do they call it gearSLUTZ then? I thought there was some inherent connection...

Glenn


ps. i think i get it... While i am schlepping aroudn my gear the singer is being satisfied in the dressingroom. Dman why didn't i see this before... Well, it's of to POD land LOL

 

[Han]

Bottom line: if you're playing with a click, you're playing with someone who isn't listening.

I've been recording a week (lately) with a band that has a drummer who insisted to play with a click, while the other guys played without it. It was horrible, even in the first couple of bars (intro), one can hear it was played with a click.

Being a drummer myself, I can play with a click very easy, but I prefer to record without a click. Practice with a click and record without it.

It's like swimming, you can exactly explain how to swim, but once you're in the water it's different and without some practice first, one wil drown.

 

[guhlenn]

huh? The drummer shouldn't play with exact timing? Funny comment coming from a drummer... care to explain?

 

[guhlenn]

huh? The drummer shouldn't play with exact timing? Funny comment coming from a drummer... care to explain?

 

[Han]

The trick is that you don't have to play exactly on top of the click, but see the click more like as it's a conductor and concentrate on the groove.

If you hear that you're slowing down, gradually accellerate your playing and keep groovin'.

And that was something this drummer could not, so he was trying to play on top of the click the whole time, which is always hearable because of the sudden tempo changes, i.o.w. no groove at all.

 

[Farview]

You are absolutely correct. If the drummer can't play to a click track, you shouldn't make him. But if he can't play to a click, he isn't much of a drummer.