Using click tracks: pro's and con's?

[mshilarious]

dynamics is a broad subject. I think you mean the avg musician would be less technically proficient at his instrument b/c he/she's concentrating on the click. If that's what you mean, yeah, you're right.
but it's all in what you're going for.

Not less technically proficient. It's more of the concept of the click as an instrument. If you're jamming with a musician who is static, then you will be more static yourself. You have to be, or it sounds really odd. Never mind that the click gets dumped, you can hear it when you cut your track, so it affects you.

Lemme state it another way: a click is saying that a musician cannot adequately control their tempo with reason (say +-2%). That, in my book, is a bad musician. One learns control via a metronome, but then should be able to proceed without one.

Isn't the same thing true of dynamics? Why not use a 'swell' track to make sure the musicians get the dynamics right?

I like to use a click in, say for 4 measures or so. After that, it's up to me not to suck.

 

[Farview]

Well it'd be tough to set up a controlled experiment, but I bet that the random average musician would be less dynamic playing to a click.

I have never wanted to be a 'random average musician'.

 

[randyfromde]

Why not use a 'swell' track to make sure the musicians get the dynamics right?

Isn't that what is done during "mixing"? I know I've seen a RE turn a volume knob once or twice during the mixing process

 

[jonhall5446]

A Cowbell makes a good click, insert silly SNL joke here, Especially for a hard rock band or something that doesn't get a lot of cowbell usage.

 

[Farview]

Not less technically proficient. It's more of the concept of the click as an instrument. If you're jamming with a musician who is static, then you will be more static yourself. You have to be, or it sounds really odd.

You obviously don't understand how a groove is created. The click is something that you ebb and flow against to create the feel. The object is not to be 100% on top of the click all the time. Just like your kick drum and bass guitar are not exactly on top of each other when you play.

What you have to do is figure out what it is that you are doing when your playing sounds great, and then do that around the click.

I agree, a lot of random average musicians will play more ridgidly (most would just not be able to) when playing to a click. But that is what separates the men from the boys. If you became a musician because it looked easier than going to college and getting a real job, you are sadly mistaken. If you became a drummer because it looked easier than playing guitar, you are a walking stereotype.

There will come a time when you will be asked to step up and play with the big boys. Are you ready? Sadly, most are not. Most professional musicians are far better a what they do than they get credit for. Even the guys that we all think suck (pick a seemingly undeserving famous band or member) a lot of times are told to play that way by a producer that likes to underestimate what people will accept as music. That same producer, by the way, will insist that everything be done to a click. Just because no one does guitar solos any more doesn't mean the guitarists are not capable, it just means that they have the maturity to know that it is inappropriate at that time.

In order to get anywhere, you need to know what you are doing.

 

[Farview]

By the way, the band shouldn't play to the click, only the drummer.

 

[mshilarious]

You obviously don't understand how a groove is created.

Of course you are wrong, you make that contention without evidence.

Good musicians listen to each other and create the groove. Yes, a good drummer can groove to a click, and anticipate the dynamic changes of the song without hearing his bandmates.

But why bother? In order for the above to be true, we have stipulated a good drummer. A good drummer, by definition, doesn't need a click.

Finally even when you groove to a click, you're still forced back on the 1, at least every couple of measures. What if the band wants a rubato section? Tempo change? Sure, you can program that in the click, but what have you really accomplished?

 

[lanterns]

"A good drummer, by definition, doesn't need a click."

mshilarious you're missing the point. The pros and cons of using one, not your definition of a good drummer.

 

[Cloneboy Studio]

Wow, it's amazing how much arguing can ensure about click tracks. I never considered them very controversial until now.

Like I said, I've used them and not used them depending on the situation.

Generally I don't record pro-musicians... In fact, I record a lot of CRAPPY musicians that totally suck. Expecting these bozos to play amazingly is out of the question.

I record them, mix them up, and take their money. They will sound as good as they play.

That's the reality of the 'guerilla producer'. You're going to record a lot of shit bands to get to the one or two bands that are worthwhile.

 

[mshilarious]

The pros and cons of using one

Con:

What if the band wants a rubato section? Tempo change? Sure, you can program that in the click, but what have you really accomplished?

Listen to a piece like Clair de Lune and tell me it would be better with a click track. I once had a recording of that where the pianist played a straight tempo. What a piece of trash.

Here are the pros listed so far:

assures steady tempo

Yes! But only if you need it. Good musicians don't need the help, because they worked with metronomes as students and now they have it down.

phrasing is tighter between the instruments and vocals

Granted, but tight is only one style of music.

It also allows us to lay tracks in any order

Why do the non-drummers have bad timing? I suck at drums, but as a bass player I've had bad drummers rely on me for timing.

it makes editing so much easier because you have a steady click to line everything up to

OK, but I don't do MIDI.

Most of the rest of the comments are about how musicians should be able to play to a click. I agree, but then those same musicians should be able keep time without one. Being able to play to a click is not a benefit of using a click. That's a circular argument.

 

[lanterns]

the click debate is hot. I once hated the notion of having to play to a click. I thought that it meant I wasn't good enough having to be urged to play to one.

 

[lanterns]

"Good musicians don't need the help, because they worked with metronomes as students and now they have it down."

If you're worried about a circular argument, check yourself.

I never worked w/ m.nomes as a "student", but I've had compliments that suggest I'm up to snuff.

 

[Hard2Hear]

I've recorded with about 5 top 40's and they all used clicks to start the tracks off. If you think you're above that, fine, more power to you. But don't be suprised if you send your crap to a label and it goes straight into the nearest trash bin. If you play rock, pop, or country you need exact timing and need to use a click. Any excuse for not doing so is just that, an excuse.

Not to mention if your band ever got signed and you went to record in a real studio and tried to tell the producer that you "don't use a click" when they're using Pro Tools...don't be suprised when he laughs you out the door and the label shelves you.

If you play other kinds of music, do whatever you want. I'm a pop/rock person myself.

H2H

 

[Secret Clubhous]

I think it really depends on the style of music. For my style of songwriting & instrumentation I use a click for the first track & play either a hihat or kick/snare scratch track to establish the groove. (I have played drums & percussion for years so I know what sounds realistic.) Then I ditch the click & continue tracking from there. I don't quantize but if anything is obviously out of time I manually edit those notes. I might be playing slightly ahead or behind the beat but it will be consistent.

Somebody said something like "if you're a good drummer you don't need a metronome." On the other hand, learning how to play to a metronome will improve anyone's rhythm. For certain styles of music, of course a click isn't appropriate. & Yeah, it can be a rude shock if you're not used to it. But if you're going to change tempos, you need to do it consciously, & a metronome is great training for that. Most folks I know who have been sequencing for a while notice their timing is much steadier.

I once was in a band where the "drummer" just got loaded on his preferred substance & just flailed away on "feeling" alone, totally unaware that his tempo was all over the place. I wish he had made the acquaintance of a click track...

 

[VTmosaic]

Wow! This is a perfect example, in my opinion, of why forums like this are so great! I really appreciate all the feedback, suggestions, opinions and tales of first-hand experience!

I have a lot to think about. In general, I think I'm gonna stick with them, despite the extra work, at least for now.

There are definitely cons, I find. For one thing, it takes us at least a couple of hours to get the click track and tempos to our liking, trying different tempos, identifying where dynamics do call for tempo changes. Worse, after we do that, if I have to insert or copy/paste or cut, it gets really tricky! I have to learn to use the tool better.

But, so far, we have managed to hang in there and do it for all the "first draft" tracks we've laid for our album. I think we'll be glad we did, at least for some of them. Now that the work is done, the click tracks don't harm anything. But we'll maybe be glad to have the music match the measures, maybe we will be able to do more with our tracks because of that. It would be a LOT harder to get the measures matched up to the music after the fact, though it can be done.

Maybe we'll experiment: doing a song without a click and with it, and comparing the performances. We have had the discussion about whether it takes life out of the song. But maybe what one wants for a live performance won't fly as swell on a recording. I do think we want a tight sound, so a click track is probably the right way for us.

 

[CGibson]

Oh Please

"Good musicians don't need the help, because they worked with metronomes as students and now they have it down."

If you're worried about a circular argument, check yourself.

I never worked w/ m.nomes as a "student", but I've had compliments that suggest I'm up to snuff.

I'm a good musician that's worked with a click for at least 20 years now. I still work with it every time I practice or record.

I dare anyone to buy a metronome and practice with it 30 min. every day for two weeks and then tell everyone the results. I already know what they'll be.

Stop making excuses guys. You're wrong if you think you can play in the same league as the big boys that use them daily.

C

 

[Farview]

Of course you are wrong, you make that contention without evidence.

You have just given me the evidence.

Finally even when you groove to a click, you're still forced back on the 1, at least every couple of measures. What if the band wants a rubato section? Tempo change? Sure, you can program that in the click, but what have you really accomplished?

A groove is not from speeding up and slowing down inside of a measure. It comes from changing the relative placement of the notes to the constant.

If you take a drum groove and isolate each part, none of the individual parts (hat, kick, snare) will make you tap your foot or sound like a groove. But if you put the hat and snare together, it might start your foot tapping. You might also find that both parts are consistant but not quite on top of each other. The snare, for instance, might hit just after the hat. Now add the kick
back in. Now your foot is tapping. But wait! the kick hits a little earlier than the hi hat. You get a different groove with the kick behind and the snare ahead, there are numerous combinations.

That is how a groove is created, whether you know it or not. The reason people have a hard time playing to a click is because the click doesn't adjust to you. You have to do all the work of pushing and lagging to make the groove happen.

I don't know why everybody is afraid to learn about what they do. If you want to be a slacker, there has to be an easier route than being a musician. And if you got into music to get laid, learn to sing, you don't have to haul around all that equipment.

 

[mshilarious]

I never worked w/ m.nomes as a "student", but I've had compliments that suggest I'm up to snuff.

I think I'm just suggesting that bands rehearse before they record.

I'm not trying to argue an extreme viewpoint, but when people say I can't groove, I'm forced into it.

Personally, I like metronomes. My daughter practices her violin to metronome. I like to use the 'nome during songwriting so I don't fall into the same tempo crutches (yeah, I've got 'em, most people do). If I'm using too much 120, maybe I'll go 112.

Not everybody needs a 'nome to learn rhythm, some get it natural. I was pretty natural, but the 'nome helped.

Anyway, like I said, I like a click in. If I wanted a track tight and wasn't getting it, I'd go back to the click.

But too much click results in tiring music. I bought Al Green's new CD, I Can't Stop. The Reverend sounds great, but the band doesn't. Sounds like soul-in-a-box. Definitely more tight than his old records, too much compression too. It's very tiring to listen to more than a few tracks.

Try this: check your normal breathing rate, take a 30 second count. Set your 'nome for that rate (in-2-out-4). Set your breathing to that rate, but be care NOT to hyper (or hypo) ventilate. Nice, smooth, even breathing.

You won't pass out, but it's very annoying. That's the way too much click makes me feel.

 

[Farview]

I'm not trying to argue an extreme viewpoint, but when people say I can't groove, I'm forced into it.

I didn't say that you couldn't groove, I implied that you didn't know how a groove works. (mechanically)

It's true that you don't need to know how it works to accomplish it, but if you do know, you can use it to your advantage. It will also stop annoying you once you realize what is going on.

I've been where you are, I used to believe that it sucked the life out of music. Then I was enlightened. The world opened up, and with practice, the click made the tracks stronger, my reputation better, my wallet fuller, and my life better.

Walk towards the light.

 

[HangDawg]

You should be able to play to a click, but after that why bother? Music needs to breathe.

That's the same thing I always hear from musicians that can't keep in time.






Sometimes you have to say screw letting the music breathe and F'ckn nail it. Alot of musicians can't.