Used Ripoffs and Rules? U87.....and a RODE NT2 U87-headbasket

a lot of the NT2 go for $250US on Reverb.....

you have a Neumann U87, are they the same size? body and all that?

reading online it seems to be the same physical size, I always thought a U87 was larger?
 
CoolCat said:
a lot of the NT2 go for $250US on Reverb.....

you have a Neumann U87, are they the same size? body and all that?

reading online it seems to be the same physical size, I always thought a U87 was larger?
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It is a while since I've encountered an NT2 but I did have one beside a couple of U87s once and they were very close in size.
 
CoolCat said:
wonder what percentage Neumann thinks they lose in U87 sales due to this? I will guess its pretty low as most buying a U87 would kno
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Right - people who are in the market for a U87 aren't necessarily looking at low priced Microphones.

CoolCat said:
Must be weird to be such a legend that so many are cloning and copying your design like a U47 or U67, U87.
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Most of the companies Copying the Classics (MXL, Studio Projects, Guage etc...) get about 90% of way there - and for most people that's fine - but Neumann doesn't 'lose' sales to those companies very often - either the person doesn't have the resources - or would have the resources in about 5 years time - except they wouldn't spend it on a expensive microphone when there are so many inexpensive ones out there that get you in the ballpark,
 
rob aylestone said:
I use a second hand site in the UK from time to time and it's clear they have no idea about the products they sell - flavour of the month are 2nd hand SM7B - bit I suspect they're all actually brand new copies, not cheaper second hand real ones.

I too did get a bargain last year - EV RE20 - but the colour was odd - not the usual greyish beige, but it had a khaki tinge. I thought I had a dodgy one, but EV in the US asked me for some pictures and closeups of the grill and the XLR socket end and confirmed the serial was valid, and not only that, the colour was correct - they have a number of different beiges. I didn't know that.
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This is my biggest concern. ...but wow? I guess Craigslist and other sites for used and all those sites with used are done for me on these popular copied mics anyway......the list gets longer.

maybe the old old AKG from Austria The TUBE and other Older mid-price mics that wont be copied can be assumed real, RODE NT2 even at least are probably real...AKG P-series..wow? Rode NTV was a mic I wish I hadnt sold, those arent copied , I assume..who knows?
 
CoolCat said:
I was joking of the Sweedun mispelling intentional....as mentioned above about the Foreign word misspelled on the box in the video.
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The kicker was when I googled the capsules, Aliexpress showed in the results, but when I clicked them their pages had none to show.
 
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One of my suppliers (for radios) I get on really well with, and she can source me loads of stuff - she speaks good english so we chat on whatsapp - what could be weird about that, bar her finding my videos that whatsapp and youtube now allow to be watched in China. She has recently explained how the Chinese market place works, and it lets me understand better how the fake market is operated. We spoke about things like Addidas and Nike. They will try to do business with the world, and supply whatever they want, and the price they want. If people want a product, and they can source the materials to make a visually identical product, they will do it. If people want a better performing product, they can do that too, but the price gets higher. They are also very good at sourcing. Many overseas brands that are made in China legitimately, are not made in one factory to leave in a box, working. If somebody makes a mic for (for example) Audio Technica - it gets matched in a different factory to the capsule, the internal hardware, the housing, the packaging, the mic clip and printing. The complete product is often protected by contracts, but the components from multiple sources probably aren't. With my radios, for example. One brand make a range of products. A Japanese firm have a radio that is virtually identical, assembled in Japan from Chinese parts. The differences are the front panel and screen printing, and maybe the colour of the LCD screen backlight. If a Chinese supplier can find the bits, they can make an identical product. It will work and perform the same as the original brand - the genuine product manufacturer finds these difficult to ban or control, because the only difference is supply chain. If a product, like these Audix mics I've had, are popular - the Chinese will copy them. Their cultural system doesn't see copyright infringment like we do. We can buy one of those cardioid only Chinese C414 looking mics and it's a great product - but the made up Chinese brand name has no kudos. making a mic and slapping neumann on it does two things. Gear envy - we all fall for it to a degree. If you want to buy a cheap mic, do you buy a £60 mic with 'Pearl River' as a brand, or Audix, Neumann, Shure, AKG etc. If it is for your own use, I really understand that. If you are buying one to then sell on facebook marketplace - that's very, very different. One is criminal and bad. One is perhaps stupid, but understandable. It's down to yiour own ethics and morals.

My Chinese supplier has two models of the same radio available - one is made with 100% original OEM parts. It's a 6 year old model discontinued by the manufacturer, but they have sourced all the bits. Everything is genuine, but they only have 60. They have over 300 of the same radio but they had no PLL boards. So their engineers used one from a different radio and programmed the chip to do exactly the same things. Nothing is different from the operational point of view, BUT the genuine software cannot program it for extra channels or names in the display like the original. Is this fake, or not fake? 90% genuine?

My take on mics is that like the SM7B fakes, they're really good - so I fiond it difficult to object to people usuing them, but I do object to passing them off as real to make money. The Audix mics were pretty poor, and many people could think that if real Audix mics sound like this, the brand could suffer?

As far as I know - German brands are sourced and made in Germany = not thousands of miles away in china, but as so many other brands are made there - other makes might be easier to copy?
 
interesting play and perspective of what I call "black market", her perspective is its technically legal in China.
its not just China, and there will be a cheaper location for labor somewhere else someday, china is the current location, etc.. yes Ive heard they can laugh at the US lawyers, US copyrights mean nothing to them as their laws mean nothing to anyone else.

culture they-China - has of what is normal to copy and "bootleg" and sell to the world doesnt seem to give them any remorse or pirate vibe per your conversation, its just "business normal" for them while some see it as intrusive criminal and law breaking.
thanks for posting that, it gives some good insight.

yeah.. for my own opinion on any of it doesnt matter.

the threat of ripoff seems to be pretty understandable, for now chinas copying the big sellers, and its legal in china.
the gate of aliexp sites and others are like the "pirate back alleys' lol...ok .......

at least most companys copying use their own name MXL, RODE, etc.. SHURE PG series in China or Mexico whatever...I dont think SHURE makes anything in the US anymore. AKG

buying a USED RODE NTV or an older SHURE KSM44 (not the new 44A) a person is probably "Safe USED"...if it matters. Maybe it doesnt matter? maybe it has a capsule yanked out of it and stuffed with some tiny pcb amp board....rip off.

for buying an expensive U87 USED or 414. USED.....a person should know their mic inside and out, even the 103 and 102....and sm57/58/ sm7b and all the other big name sellers they are copying best they can.. RIPOFF BEWARE list?

for me then USED will take a bigger negative hit ...used takes more effort in confirming its real and not swapped...

or maybe ignorance is bliss! just buy that $2499 used U87ai and dont look inside!! lol
 
She called again today - she has sourced some alternate products that are genuine old stock, bar the instruction books - which are of all things, in Israeli! She has printed an English version but she says it looks like a good photocopy, not a proper print. She has another line where the cases are real, but unscreen printed and they've done their best on printing - and it's not very good - the font is wrong and a little too big. So the injection moulding machine just made a pile of cases - the missing bit, so that will be another run of a 7 year old product soon. Very different. She has quite big targets to meet, and has a big loan for her house and car. Sounds quite Western, doesn't it.
 
I was looking at GC and theres 11 pages of USED Neumanns.....90% are 102 and 103? the 10% seemed U87ai, 184, misc...

Couldnt help but wonder how many have diy capsules shoved in them or are from AliExpress with a hello kitty pcb..?
 
102/3 and the handhelds are never going to be genuine on there, because is their test on receipt anything other than 1,2,1,2 and they all pass that!
 
So I'm curious. Why so many used Neuman 102/103 mics at GC? And for nearly new prices? Why are so many people getting rid of these? Are these authentic or copies? A little of both? This used gear business is scary these days.
 
6 pages of Shure SM7b USED.
But buyer beware maybe a USED fake? The GC I traded at in the past often dont even do the "Testing 1, 2 ", they scramble around as if they cant get rid of me fast enough, while others zoom by in some hurry as if its a fast food drive through, not a chilled music store.

How many of the 6 pages are FAKES? how many buyers will even care or notice? If they sound ok....they definitely look similar.

as for GC selling used at near new prices, I suspect they are scamming their books....making the inventory worth appear to be higher than it truly is....real inventory of used gear they hold is probably 50% in cash, a huge amount of their used gear is garbage-broken-trashed out-blown out....and unpopular ....I have gotten some amazing deals through them because they often dont pay attention and might have a nice Joe Meek rackmount for $175! or a US Fender Precision at $650 mint....rare but I think such a large company they have "flukes-mistakes- dont care" deals...lol
 
I can see that. My GC, whenever you ask a question - any question - the answer is "I don't know. I'll have to check... be right back."
 
I dont know anything about business, but it seems to be something is off about GC and the Used gear prices.

Watched the The Big Short and the fake Housing Bundle Bonds, AAA loans were really bad loans and worthless crap ..kind of like fake mics being sold as real mics but "bundled" with real ones then added to the Inventory as being worth $369 used!! (new is $399 or less).

Do you know anyone who would buy a used SM7b for near the same price as a brand new one? or Neumann 102/103?
the foam spit piece is worth something on a new one, and you get full warranty with a new one and the box etc. and its probably not a fake Sm7b....so a Used SM7b traded in seems should be 50% or 60% cost of a new one. Not 10% cheaper.than brand new
and whats it worth that the USED one is possibly not even a real SM7b.... wow? why buy a Used one then?

I will suspect per the formula, that GC will offer $170 for a used SM7b then sell it , or try to sell it at $300-$350.(not including tax)

bit other shops have better deals like Front End Audio doesnt charge shipping and no taxes and has refunds, so a brand new SM7B from Front End is cheaper than a Used one at GC? lol...come on.

Logical common sense shows GC is viewing their inventory in some weird way that maybe has nothing to do with actually selling a mic, but instead some SubPrime-scheme of crap gear being an inflated value for corp reasons? IDK.

I dont want to think about SM57/58.... buyer beware?
 
I know some people who have traded in gear to buy something else. Sell a Tele to buy a Strat type of deal. Or if they needed cash, sell a few mics or guitar pedals. They got more than going to a pawn shop but not by much. Unless you can work a deal for a trade, GC really low-balls on what they will give you. Then they mark it up a bunch. It will be at least the same percentage markup or more as they get with new product.

On friend sold an amp to GC, and got less that 40% of what it cost him. Someone later told him it was listed for more that double what he got. If he had the time, he probably could have sold it on Craigslist and gotten more money but he needed the cash then.
 
If you have a genuine Neumann, it’s a valuable and sought after mic.most people sell them on specialist sites, or specialist auctions. It’s a bit like selling your rolls Royce on we buy any car dot com. You could get its real value elsewhere. If the people you sell it to dont even know about fake SM58s, a Neumann is very risky.
 
like Fake ROLEX watches...used even worse. a person needs to be an expert or send the mic in to someone to be an mic-police and verify its not full of MXL capsules and DIY pcb boards from China....

the whole counterfeiting thing is a gray line to the clones and copys too...on one hand its impressive to me they can machine shop, counterfeit, assemble a microphone at all...the whole process is amazing and to do it so cheaply. others seem to simulate a U87, with better parts and less exact copying but then
its not the same mic.

I see someone bought the damaged Guitar Center U87ai for $1500....used...beaten, dented, no case candy, no shockmount, does it have a real Neumann capsule from Neumann? is it a real Neumann pcb board or some MXL DIY PARTS board inside the beaten up Neumann body....or is it even a Neumann body? Maybe its a relic-copy....
Someone paid $1500 plus tax and shipping for it..... they could have paid $2500 for a mint Used U87ai, but the same "skepticism" remains for it.

A lot of people wont take a Rolex apart or even know how to spot a fake, its weird and seems to be a growing attack on Neumann anyway.
Wonder is it 10% are fakes? 20% or 1%?

I suppose a person can send the mic to Neumann for confirmation its real or that Klaus dude. How much is that another $300?
What do they do if its a fake ripoff ? keep it? dispose of it?

I knew a bartender who'd water up the bottles of whiskey. Who would know?
 
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