Use a RNC to track? Better than nothing?

[alexvdbroek]

Hey guys

I have no outboard compression. (Or anything outboard for that matter), I am recording my partners band soon in a really sweet room live. She is an amazing singer with great mic technique (etc).

Would it be beneficial to track her vocals with compression even if it is a cheap compressor like the RNC? Or better just to wait and apply afterwards..

Thanks
Alex

 

[RRuskin]

Hey guys

I have no outboard compression. (Or anything outboard for that matter), I am recording my partners band soon in a really sweet room live. She is an amazing singer with great mic technique (etc).

Would it be beneficial to track her vocals with compression even if it is a cheap compressor like the RNC? Or better just to wait and apply afterwards..

Thanks
Alex

Other than the fact that you can't use each channel independently, there is nothing cheap about the RNC's performance. I would ask why you think you need any compression when tracking, especially considering your partner's mic technique. Save that step on re-mix if and when it's needed.

 

[Massive Master]

Would it be beneficial to track her vocals with compression even if it is a cheap compressor like the RNC? Or better just to wait and apply afterwards..

The RNC really is, uh... really nice.

THAT SAID --

I would avoid compression on the way in anyway.

A) If you feel the "need" for compression on the way in, you're probably tracking too hot.

B) Adding compression will only turn "too hot" into "much too hot" and you don't want any of that...

 

[Seafroggys]

But at the same time, is it a good idea not to deal with outboard inserts unless you have very good D/A and A/D converters, since you'll be running them through multiple times?

If you know what you are doing, and like the effect, maybe a little bit of outboard on the way in would be a good idea?

I've been considering getting the RNLA for that purpose, mainly for my drum overheads.

 

[alexvdbroek]

The RNC really is, uh... really nice.


A) If you feel the "need" for compression on the way in, you're probably tracking too hot.

B) Adding compression will only turn "too hot" into "much too hot" and you don't want any of that...

Don't you want to track hot with digital? As long as you don't get any 'overs' its all good. This would be my reason for getting one. So I can keep the voice at a good level even in highly dynamic parts.

A.

 

[Todzilla]

RNC = good
Printing compression while tracking = bad (unless you really, really, really know what you're doing and even then it's just a slight timesaver)

 

[DrewPeterson7]

Don't you want to track hot with digital? As long as you don't get any 'overs' its all good. This would be my reason for getting one. So I can keep the voice at a good level even in highly dynamic parts.

A.

If there's ANYTHING I've learned from posting here, it's that that is absolutely not true.

The single-biggest advantage of 24-bit recording is that it gives you an absolutely staggering amount of headroom - something like 96db, if memory serves. There's no need to come anywhere near 0db while tracking over concerns about headroom and "noise floor," and in fact plenty of reasons not to - most "prosumer" gear gets a little iffy and nonlinear when pushed towards 0db, and you generally get way cleaner transients if you give yourself plenty of headroom - -12 through -18 is a commonly recommended target range around here.

 

[snatchman]

I've never had problems tracking with outboard compressors. I've had better results with "getting it right when tracking",than trying to "fix it in the mix".Then again, I'm old..... I've used the RNC tracking also. Just don't try to over do it..Good luck..

 

[Farview]

Don't you want to track hot with digital? As long as you don't get any 'overs' its all good. This would be my reason for getting one. So I can keep the voice at a good level even in highly dynamic parts.

A.

No. You want to track at line level, which ends up being somewhere around -18dbfs. When you are setting your levels, have the singer hit a loud-ish sustained note and set the levels so that is around -18dbfs in the computer.

Tracking hot leads to all kind of problems down the line.

I generally track vocals with outboard compression. But I don't do it to keep the dynamic range in check, I do it because I like the sound of compressed vocals. I could easily do all the compression ITB, but I have great compressors built into my Langevin DVC, so I use them

 

[RAMI]

Don't you want to track hot with digital?

Just in case the previous posters didn't make it clear enough .... it's the exact opposite. You want to track hot with analogue. You want to track not hot with digital.

 

[Massive Master]

Don't you want to track hot with digital? As long as you don't get any 'overs' its all good. This would be my reason for getting one. So I can keep the voice at a good level even in highly dynamic parts.

Adding to RAMI's post -- "Hot" in analog IS "normal" in digital.

If people recorded analog as hot as they try to record in digital, it'd melt the tape.

More here if you're bored -- http://www.massivemastering.com/blog/index_files/Proper_Audio_Recording_Levels.php

But long story short, I don't ever have anything - ANYTHING - peaking above *maybe* -12dBFS when tracking. PEAKING. I'm talking about -24 to -20dB(FS)RMS levels - Which again, are perfectly normal. But a lot of people have a hard time grasping the concept of leaving a little headroom (I'm not saying you're one of them - I'm just saying).

Running the input chain at 300% over spec on the other hand, is not.

Although, Gawd hep' me, I still see it in manuals for a lot of gear - "Track as hot as you can without clipping" -- It b-l-o-w-s m-y m-i-n-d that they don't "get it."

 

[witzendoz]

Back to the original question, I don't always track vocals through a compressor (sometimes a RNC), but if I am tracking a vocalist with very wide dynamic, can't hear some notes, sings very loud when in the comfort zone, I put a compressor in line with it set to only grab the signal on the largest peak. The main reason is so a great take is not ruined by some sudden loud passage.

With recording levels, I do tend to record quite hot, maybe it's because I started in the analog world? But not super hot just healthy. The advantage I have with hotter levels is that even though I record in the digital world I prefer to mix in the analog world, analog desk, outboard, etc, and having a nice healthy signal from the digital recorder reduces analog induced noise (not excessive but there) in the mixing chain.

Cheers
Alan

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The single-biggest advantage of 24-bit recording is that it gives you an absolutely staggering amount of headroom - something like 96db

It's even better than that, my brother; in 24-bit it's more like 138dB between the digital noise floor and clipping. 90dB is what you get from 16-bit. It's easy to figure out; take the number of bits and multiply that number by 6dB. Then subtract the last 6dB because that last bit is going to contain the rounding error because there are no further digits, this makes the last bit noisy by definition, so that's the practical noise floor.

So 16 bits x 6dB/bit = 96 dB. Subtract the last 6dB and you have 16bits=90dB of usable digital "space" in which to record and mix your signal. And in turn, 24 bits x 6dB/bit = 144db. Subtract the last 6dB as noisy and you have a whopping 138dB to work with.

Considering your average analog chain (mic -> preamp- > ? -> A/D converter) rarely gives one more that 70dB at best of dynamic range between the analog noise floor and the peak signal - with most typical input chains yielding more like 60-65dB of dynamic range - there's plenty of room for everybody on the digital side, with absolutely no reason or advantage to record hot.

G.

 

[alexvdbroek]

Adding to RAMI's post -- "Hot" in analog IS "normal" in digital.

If people recorded analog as hot as they try to record in digital, it'd melt the tape.

More here if you're bored -- http://www.massivemastering.com/blog/index_files/Proper_Audio_Recording_Levels.php

But long story short, I don't ever have anything - ANYTHING - peaking above *maybe* -12dBFS when tracking. PEAKING. I'm talking about -24 to -20dB(FS)RMS levels - Which again, are perfectly normal. But a lot of people have a hard time grasping the concept of leaving a little headroom (I'm not saying you're one of them - I'm just saying).

Running the input chain at 300% over spec on the other hand, is not.

Although, Gawd hep' me, I still see it in manuals for a lot of gear - "Track as hot as you can without clipping" -- It b-l-o-w-s m-y m-i-n-d that they don't "get it."

I haven't read that article yet, but if I track hot in digital (not clipping), then the noise floor will be even lower relatively to the recorded sound. Which is a good thing...

A.

 

[Massive Master]

No it won't -- If you're running your input chain at voltages 3x higher than it's designed for, the whole noise thing goes out the window. I'd all but guarantee you're raising the noise level.

As if the noise floor was the important part... Not to mention the horrible sound quality...

Granted - With uber-high quality chains that have absolutely obscene amounts of available usable headroom, it's not as much of an issue. But with the run-of-the-mill, it's easily audible in many cases. Too many cases...

 

[Chili]

The single-biggest advantage of 24-bit recording is that it gives you an absolutely staggering amount of headroom -

It's even better than that, my brother; in 24-bit it's more like 138dB between the digital noise floor and clipping.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but 24 bit doesn't allow you to be any louder or hotter than 16 bit. It's just that the noise floor is so much lower. When people talk about headroom in 24 bit, they think the ceiling is raised, but it's really not, just that the floor is lower. Correct?? You can't come into a converter with a hotter signal regardless of bit depth. Or do I have this wrong.


Oops, sorry for the tangent.

 

[alexvdbroek]

No it won't -- If you're running your input chain at voltages 3x higher than it's designed for, the whole noise thing goes out the window. I'd all but guarantee you're raising the noise level.

As if the noise floor was the important part... Not to mention the horrible sound quality...

Granted - With uber-high quality chains that have absolutely obscene amounts of available usable headroom, it's not as much of an issue. But with the run-of-the-mill, it's easily audible in many cases. Too many cases...

No this is a good tangent as it means that tracking with a RNC is probably a good idea so you can get the dynamics right where you want them. Not too hot. Not too cold.

BTW, I am researching the recording level thing now...
BTWW still not sure what to do!
A.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The main reason is so a great take is not ruined by some sudden loud passage.

Ruined by what? If you set your gain correctly you should have headroom throughout the signal path. That means having the performer play/sing their loudest, and then leaving a bit of safety margin above that (since by now we all know they get louder when it's "for real").

 

[witzendoz]

Ruined by the so called singer that sings along at 50dB then suddenly screams their head off at +130dB, even though they did not do it in the 20 run through sound checks we had to sit through while they got in the zone.

When you tell them they will have to do it again as you just red lined everything in the studio, they say they don't have another performance like that in them ever.

Don't talk to me about setting up gain correctly, if I set it up for this nonsense we would not get any level. And yes the customer is always right.

Alan.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Ruined by the so called singer that sings along at 50dB then suddenly screams their head off at +130dB, even though they did not do it in the 20 run through sound checks we had to sit through while they got in the zone.

When you tell them they will have to do it again as you just red lined everything in the studio, they say they don't have another performance like that in them ever.

Don't talk to me about setting up gain correctly, if I set it up for this nonsense we would not get any level. And yes the customer is always right.

Alan.

Ouch. Triple your rate next time they want to hire you. Then split the XLR from the mic into three channels set to different levels of gain: whisper, normal and scream.