Upwards software compressor

  • Thread starter Thread starter philbagg
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However, my comment/question is related more to the OP. Wouldn't applying upward compression to bring up some weak notes affect the overall sound envelope/decay of the piano sound? This would be something to watch out for in this instance.
That kind of thing is always something one has to watch out for, but it's really not a whole lot different than the similar concerns one has with using "standard" downward compression to tame the wild hairs in the other direction. You always have to find the compromise (if there is one) between taming the dynamics and screwing the envelope.

Which reminds me, BTW: someone (was it phil?) asked a while back in this thread if one could simply have a zonal gain control instead of zonal compression/expansion. With a tool like Neodynum/Dynamizer (RIP :( ), I believe you can. Just set up the dynamic range zone you want to affect, set the ratio to 1:1, and then apply the L & R output gains as desired. This will provide a gain control without compression/expansion for just that slice of the dynamic pie. This is one additional option for those times when something like the piano decay envelope doesn't want to be messed with.

G.
 
Thoughts on the following technique:

1. Gate the source so that only the signals above threshold remain (the opposite of what we want to add or compress).

2. Reverse the polarity of this signal and sum with the source track. This should cancel out the signal above the threshold leaving what was removed during gating (low level signal).

3. Compress (or not) the signal from step 2 and sum with the source track. Without compression the original attack is maintained and just the level is raised by the amount of the signal added.

All of this assumes that everything lines up properly so latency compensation in Pro Tools needs to be turned on (and working correctly). Also gating can be a bit tricky, it's not going to be sample accurate like DSP can perform, but that might be a benefit in a way if it isn't chattering since you can control the envelope of the low level signal. Replacing the gate with a downward expander might also help to smooth things out and give a more natural sound.
 
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I would think that for instances like this volume automation is the best option.
 
I would think that for instances like this volume automation is the best option.
This was brought up earlier. The problem with automation is that it works on the composite waveform. It's fine for pumping up isolated sounds, but if the weak note or sound is coincident with something louder that you don't want to alter, you cannot target just the one without hitting the other as well.

G.
 
This was brought up earlier. The problem with automation is that it works on the composite waveform. It's fine for pumping up isolated sounds, but if the weak note or sound is coincident with something louder that you don't want to alter, you cannot target just the one without hitting the other as well.

G.
Funny you said that. I was thinking exactly the same thing as I was opening this thread again :)
 
Funny you said that. I was thinking exactly the same thing as I was opening this thread again :)
You know what they say; "Great minds think alike." ;)

What that has to do with us, I have no idea... :(

:D

G.
 
Thoughts on the following technique:

1. Gate the source so that only the signals above threshold remain (the opposite of what we want to add or compress).

2. Reverse the polarity of this signal and sum with the source track. This should cancel out the signal above the threshold leaving what was removed during gating (low level signal).

3. Compress (or not) the signal from step 2 and sum with the source track. Without compression the original attack is maintained and just the level is raised by the amount of the signal added.

All of this assumes that everything lines up properly so latency compensation in Pro Tools needs to be turned on (and working correctly). Also gating can be a bit tricky, it's not going to be sample accurate like DSP can perform, but that might be a benefit in a way if it isn't chattering since you can control the envelope of the low level signal. Replacing the gate with a downward expander might also help to smooth things out and give a more natural sound.

This is very similar to what I suggested in my last post :p

As for latency compensation, if you have Pro Tools HD, you can use the
delay compensation feature. However, for LE users like myself, there's no such
thing, so the latency issue could screw it up. This is why I suggested strip
silence. It doesn't work in real time, so it has no latency issues. However, if
you wanted to use the gate route, you could solo the track, apply a gate
(real time), fine tune the parameters, and then use Audiosuite (non-real time
processing) to render the track with the gating effects. This should eliminate
the latency issue.

The only problem I'd see with using phase reverse to remove the peaks would
be if the gate altered the sound in any way. It won't completely cancel. I've
done tests where I've loaded 2 different compressors onto the same track,
and used the exact same parameters, and phase reversed them. They barely
cancelled (and they shouldn't, otherwise we wouldn't need different
compressor plug-ins).

This is why I suggested strip silence. It can be used to remove audio above
a threshold, and audio below a threshold, enabling you to separate the two,
and apply processing to each individually. But because it isn't using any
"processing" to separate the signals, and it's purely editing, there should be
no sonic alteration to the audio. I'm going to give this a shot :)
 
My question is how does the threshold on a standard down compressor work? Is that a simple gate?

G.
 
Sorry G I don't follow :confused:
I'm asking how does the threshold works on a standard hardware compressor. Is it simply a gate that passes the signal though unimpeded as long as it is below the gate level but internally "sidechains" the signal through the compression circuit when the amplitude exceeds the gate/threshold level?

The reason I ask is because if so, then it's not really separating the quiet and the loud parts of the signal, because a gate can't do that. A gate is an on/off, all-or-nothing proposition. It's either open or it's closed *to the entire composite signal*; it's simply the amplitude of the entire composite signal that determines whether it's open or closed. For example, when you use a gate to quiet background noise, the noise is only quieted when the gate is closed. As soon as a good part of the signal opens the gate, the background noise comes through with it also.

G.
 
Thoughts on the following technique:

1. Gate the source so that only the signals above threshold remain (the opposite of what we want to add or compress).

2. Reverse the polarity of this signal and sum with the source track. This should cancel out the signal above the threshold leaving what was removed during gating (low level signal).

3. Compress (or not) the signal from step 2 and sum with the source track. Without compression the original attack is maintained and just the level is raised by the amount of the signal added.

All of this assumes that everything lines up properly so latency compensation in Pro Tools needs to be turned on (and working correctly). Also gating can be a bit tricky, it's not going to be sample accurate like DSP can perform, but that might be a benefit in a way if it isn't chattering since you can control the envelope of the low level signal. Replacing the gate with a downward expander might also help to smooth things out and give a more natural sound.

Hey! That's a pretty cool idea for mangling drums! I think I'm gonna try it this weekend on some drum loops and see what I get. :)
 
BTW, @philbagg : So how did you wind actually attacking your OP problem with the piano? Did/does PT have a dynamics processor tool?

I left it. I'll come back to it some other time. There's nobody waiting on it :D

I don't think it does. It comes with 3 dynamics effects: compressor, expander/gate, and a de-esser (I think that's all of em).
 
I'm asking how does the threshold works on a standard hardware compressor. Is it simply a gate that passes the signal though unimpeded as long as it is below the gate level but internally "sidechains" the signal through the compression circuit when the amplitude exceeds the gate/threshold level?

The reason I ask is because if so, then it's not really separating the quiet and the loud parts of the signal, because a gate can't do that. A gate is an on/off, all-or-nothing proposition. It's either open or it's closed *to the entire composite signal*; it's simply the amplitude of the entire composite signal that determines whether it's open or closed. For example, when you use a gate to quiet background noise, the noise is only quieted when the gate is closed. As soon as a good part of the signal opens the gate, the background noise comes through with it also.

G.

I couldn't tell ya :confused:
 
Compressor works like a gate, it cuts on when threshold is reached and doesn't cut off till it has been below the threshold for the amount of time in the release.
 
Compressor works like a gate, it cuts on when threshold is reached and doesn't cut off till it has been below the threshold for the amount of time in the release.
Thanks, Alan, that's what I thought. Which means that - technically speaking, when it's on, it's compressing the entire waveform.

That's not much of an issue with standard uses of down compression. Either one has the compression set low to level virtually everything anyway, or it's set for keeping peaks and transients in check, which due to the higher amplitude nature of those peaks, has little audible effect on the quieter stuff (assuming you have the attack and release set properly to avoid that.)

But - just thinking out loud here is all - if trying to use a gate to pull the peaks out of the RMS, it will create "holes" in the lower stuff that won't get modified by the subsequent up compression, because they will get gated out with the higher stuff.

Now, for quick transient peaks this would probably not be an issue, but when trying to isolate stuff low enough below the RMS, there will be a lot of it gated out that is not necessarily in the form of an occasional transient, pulling a lot of the targeted amplitude stuff with it that will wind up not getting the desired compression.

This may or may not be a problem in many cases, but it does make me wonder just how low one can limbo with the threshold using the gated parallel compression scheme that Tom is proposing.

I could be completely off base with that concern, and I'd still recommend that you go ahead and experiment with it - who knows just what you might find in the way of benefits. But it might be something just to keep in the back of the head to watch out for when testing things out.

G.
 
This is very similar to what I suggested in my last post :p

Separation of the audio above and below theshold is indeed similar. I would prefer doing this in realtime though as well as being able to automate the process and tweak. Somthing like this might work well with a filter too for bringing up an erratic kick or snare.

When I get more time I'll play around with this (have to get too many projects out the door right now). But it might be a good tool in the arsenal when the need arises.

Would you be interested in posting a bit of your track as a full 24 bit wav file for us to play with?
 
Separation of the audio above and below theshold is indeed similar. I would prefer doing this in realtime though as well as being able to automate the process and tweak. Somthing like this might work well with a filter too for bringing up an erratic kick or snare.

When I get more time I'll play around with this (have to get too many projects out the door right now). But it might be a good tool in the arsenal when the need arises.

Would you be interested in posting a bit of your track as a full 24 bit wav file for us to play with?

You mean just the piano?
 
You mean just the piano?

Yeah sure. It's the techniques we're checking out here not really a full on mixing or mastering job. BTW if LE doesn't have good latency compensation try routing the source track through the same chain as the processed track but bypass the plugs. It should delay by the same amount, at least it works this way on HD systems.
 
Yeah sure. It's the techniques we're checking out here not really a full on mixing or mastering job. BTW if LE doesn't have good latency compensation try routing the source track through the same chain as the processed track but bypass the plugs. It should delay by the same amount, at least it works this way on HD systems.

It does indeed. Where can I upload the file?
 
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