Upright bass?

[mshilarious]

Only if you roll off all of it.

The problem is if you have an 18dB slope (which is typical), you'd be down 12dB on the low E, but only maybe 3dB on A. That would sound very distracting to me, like the low notes on the bass were dead, which would sound like a poor quality instrument.

If you are talking about using a low shelf cut, that is different. Or a 30Hz high pass, that I would heartily endorse.

 

[leddy]

The problem is if you have an 18dB slope (which is typical), you'd be down 12dB on the low E, but only maybe 3dB on A. That would sound very distracting to me, like the low notes on the bass were dead, which would sound like a poor quality instrument.

If you are talking about using a low shelf cut, that is different. Or a 30Hz high pass, that I would heartily endorse.

You can still have room reflections, proximity, bleed from other inst., etc. that cause the low freq. to build up past a natural point, where the result of such a slope would sound natural, and the lack of it would be a booming mess.

My original statement was that "I usually HP around 65hz". Sometimes it's lower or not at all.

I'm sure you know more than I do about this stuff, and I think what you stated here is absolutey correct, assuming you are recording in a well-treated room with some freedom on how you mic it. I've spent 100's of hours recording upright bass in live performances with drums 5 feet away and no gobos, so my approach is probably different.

Then again, upright bass tends to be a jazz or bluegrass instrument, where musicians tend to want to perform in the same room, and often not in a studio.

 

[mshilarious]

I'm sure you know more than I do about this stuff, and I think what you stated here is absolutey correct, assuming you are recording in a well-treated room with some freedom on how you mic it. I've spent 100's of hours recording upright bass in live performances with drums 5 feet away and no gobos, so my approach is probably different.

No, I don't dispute your experience, I'm just trying to figure out what is the reason for the rule of thumb. I wish I still had an upright to play with, I rented one for a few months and it was great fun, but I don't have the spread to buy

 

[leddy]

No, I don't dispute your experience, I'm just trying to figure out what is the reason for the rule of thumb. I wish I still had an upright to play with, I rented one for a few months and it was great fun, but I don't have the spread to buy

In retrospect, I should have been smart enough not to include the idea about the HP. It is too dependant on other factors.

 

[mshilarious]

In retrospect, I should have been smart enough not to include the idea about the HP. It is too dependant on other factors.

That is good to know, it brings up something that should be considered

 

[AGCurry]

I've been playing upright for over 30 years, and I often roll off the low frequencies when mixing. I agree with notCardio: I don't want it to sound like a steroidally-enhanced big band in a movie, because that's not how upright bass reallly sounds.

 

[Brackish]

leddy, how far off would you recommend placing the
omni? Also, I'm not real familiar with the parts
of a bass. Where should the omni be placed?
About a half foot north of the bridge, in the
direction of the head?

 

[bubbagump]

For the omni he mentioned suspending it with rubber bands between the bride feet. The bridge is the wooden piece that holds the strings up off of body. If you look at it from the player's position it looks like a bridge as in something you drive your car over. There is a rather large arch area between the body and the part of the brdige that comes in contact with the strings. This is where he was saying to suspend the mic. Check out this picture. The piece to the far right is a bass bridge. See the arch? A bass bridge is big (like the size of a small pie plate) so you could probably easily fit your hand in that space to give you an idea as to how big it is.

 

[leddy]

leddy, how far off would you recommend placing the
omni? Also, I'm not real familiar with the parts
of a bass. Where should the omni be placed?
About a half foot north of the bridge, in the
direction of the head?

The whole idea behind the omni is that you can get it close without proximity effect. The problem I'm trying to solve is getting a decent sound with reasonable isolation when other instruments are nearby. If I can't get isolation, then the bleed should be as usable as possible. If the omni is practically touching the bass, it might be ok - you have to listen. It will likely sound a little better as you pull it an inch or two away, but then the other instruments will get louder in that mic. If you have a cardiod with good off-axis sound and the proximity does not bother you, go for it.

I like to suspend the mic with rubberbands between the bridge legs. Here's one way: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=36564&d=1150692920 Not my picture, but it helps illustrate.

I can't find a picture, but you can also just wrap one rubber band around one leg, and stick the mic through the two ends of the rubber band, then repeat the process on the other side to equal out the tension. If you can picture that, you get a mic suspended in the middle of the bridge, similar to the photo above, but pointing straight up. Use more rubber bands or ties to position the mic how you want it.

Where exactly it sounds best will have to be your experimentation. Every situation is different.

There some great threads at Gearslutz in the remote forum. One is called "upright bass still a PITA". Check it out.

 

[bubbagump]

Here is the GearSlutz thread.

 

[nuemes]

Given the mics you have and the situation I would mic the bass (given my limited experience!) with the SM7 trying to ensure that placement leaves the mic pointing away from the other instruments. The SM7 may cut the highs down though; the choice might depend more on the type of sound the group is looking for.

I've only recorded acou. bass once, were there was total isolation; in that case I used an LDC figure 8. The best spot I found was @ 2ft in front of the bridge.

 

[giraffe]

i'm suprised no one's mentioned the d112.
relitively cheep, and the double bass is the instrument it was actually made to record.
does quite a good job IMO.

 

[littledog]

In defense of Leddy, I've also spent many years recording upright basses, mostly in a jazz context. Almost invariably, when it comes time to mix, I find there is more low end information than I need, and I usually end up using some kind of a HPF.

While I'm quite willing to admit that the laws of physic and/or acoustics might argue (at least on the surface) against doing so, I'm more concerned with making the mix sound good than worrying about theory. And more times than not, that means some sort of HPF. A lot of times with really low notes, you are hearing more of the harmonic than the fundamental anyway. At least that's the theory behind Waves MaxxBass.

It could also be the way I often mic: Large diaphragm condenser tending towards the bright side (like a Gefell UM70) to pick up a lot of the string attack transients (which gives the notes definition and clarity) placed slightly below the bridge about six inches from the strings.

Recently I got some DPA mini-omnis with various mounting options which I'm eager to try. So far I've only used them on piano on live concert recording gigs.

For a natural accurate sound, the D112 is one of the last mics I'd recommend. You'll never get the "fingers on strings" details. For the same reason I'd probably stay away from the SM7 as well.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

SM7, i5, SM94, SM57, D6, MSH1A, AT4050, ADK A51, NT1000, Berry ECM8000

i recorded a jazz quarter last year where i tracked the upright bass with a U-87 about 12 inches in front of the middle of the neck, and blended that with a DI signal from the pickup...then i rolled-off the boomy low-end from the mic, and voila, it sounded great - the U87 captured the "pluck" and the DI gave it clean low-end, which i believe i compressed ever-so-slightly with an LA-2A

anyways...to make a long story short, if i was in your position i would try the same technique, but with the 4050 out in front. on the other hand, there's quite a few posts so far in this topic that might have better advice, none of which i really feel like reading, lol.

 

[Brackish]

Recently I got some DPA mini-omnis with various mounting options which I'm eager to try. So far I've only used them on piano on live concert recording gigs.

littledog, how were those DPAs on piano?
What do you think of the sound of them generally?

 

[leddy]

For a natural accurate sound, the D112 is one of the last mics I'd recommend. You'll never get the "fingers on strings" details. For the same reason I'd probably stay away from the SM7 as well.

I have to agree. I tried a D112 once and was not impressed. It is a great bass drum mic, no doubt. Didn't work on upright bass for me, though.

 

[sweetnubs]

I just used an earthworks omni (m30) on a upright the other day just as described, with a schoeps on the shoulder. I also had a pickup on the bass hooked up to a mic'd amp in a amp closet. I used almost entirely the omni with a little of the amp blended in for some clarity. The upright was in the same tracking room with a full jazz band. No gobos up, came out great. I also did not read this thread before doing this. It appears great minds think alike.

 

[Han]

What's wrong with the search function? Upright bass is a PITA, really, you'll find out.

Put your Berry under the tailpiece wrapped in foam and you're halfway there, point another mic at the fingerboard and there you go.

And read this: http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=184320&highlight=upright+bass

After that I've tried the SP B1 in the bridge, that wasn't too bad either, but lately I've found out the Sennheiser MD416 sound pretty good when wrapped in foam put in the bridge. The MD416 is pretty rare though.

 

[littledog]

littledog, how were those DPAs on piano?
What do you think of the sound of them generally?

These are the mini omnis that come with their "cheap" stereo piano mic'ing kit. (That's about $900 street price, versus their higher end cardioid stereo piano kit that goes for around $3000.)

For reasons discussed, I actually prefer omnis. The main drawback to the mini omnis (as opposed to the cardioids) is self noise, so if you were using them on a really quiet instrument in a pristine setting, some people might go in a different direction.

However, my first test of them was to record a 9' Yamaha concert grand on a stage as part of a jazz band (vocals, sax, piano, ac. bass, drums) live concert. Given the fact that the piano was so close to the drums, as well as stage monitors, etc. the self-noise (which is in no way all that bad, just high compared to really quiet mics) was not any kind of an issue. In that setting they were outstanding. I just sent rough mixes to the concert producers (who hired me) and they were blown away by the sound on the roughs. So they're happy, and I'm happy - no regrets on the DPA purchase at all.

Plus the mounting accessories are REALLY cool - you can turn them into boundary mics, suspend them from the piano lid (hanging down), or magnetically mount them to the harp (which is how I used them in this case).