Unring the Bell...take Prozac first

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Soundtoys MicroShift.

Love that plug. <3 . You can get a chorus effect without phase issues or... Much better deal when I got it for $50. If you have an Ilok, follow those once a year promotion threads for Soundtoys plugs. You get them way cheaper by following. Kind of lame but the plug would actually be worth the full price to me if I hadn't played the game.

It really is a great tool. One of 5 I use daily.
 
Cool tune - vocals performance is excellent. Jimy's mix is "richer sounding" but the verse vocal sounds more upfront- not sure I like that as much as the original.
 
Jimmy, it sounds amazing! Thank you. I listen and I'm like, huh, that's my voice?

When it gets to the verse, the difference is incredible. There is a terrific increase in intensity and excitement which was really lacking in mine. The vocals seem to blend together a lot better and are just more pleasant.

I noticed that it seems like you did something (EQ?) to the kick drum (to differentiate from the bass guitar?)
And less reverb overall obviously...
And in the beginning the piano and bass parts are much more differentiated from each other. I'm assuming that that is EQ at work...

The vocal mouth-smacking sounds: nasty. I sang the verses really close the mic, didn't use the pop filter because it was in the way, and I was clutching the mic in both hands. So you're saying this isn't a good technique?! (I was trying to make it sound intimate, which I do think worked but the extraneous mouth sounds are a negative side-effect.) I did use a lot of volume automation to drop down the volume of some of the consonants, esp. the "k" sounds. Can you tell me if that is the same technique you use edit them out, or something different?

Now you said you used EQ and compression to get the "air out of my voice". What does that mean? To much breathiness? Like too much breath and not enough tone? Is this something I fix in performance or mixing? I ended up not using any EQ or compression on the lead vocal in the chorus because I didn't think it made it sound any better. So I just left it alone. I did some random and ineffective compression and EQ on the harmony parts that was useless. If you can give me more direction on EQ and compression for the vocals I would appreciate it.

Thanks for pointing out the lyrics error. Worth fixing.

Darkness. Yes, my personal preference is for lots of bass and reverb, if that's what you mean by darkness.

And yeah, what is micro shift?

Thanks again, this is a great learning opportunity for me and I do appreciate it!
------

Chili: interesting point about the listening environment. I was assuming the differences in mixing was about 95% technical knowledge and about 5% subjective preference but now I wonder. I do have some monitors in a medium-sized, finished basement. But I do most of the mixing on headphones and then just check it when I like what I have what I like and make final adjustments on the monitors. For whatever I choose to finish next I think I will make a real effort to mix on the monitors (mostly) and see what happens.

Thank you for the encouragement. It means a lot since I don't have anyone in person that I bounce things off of.
 
Ha ha, it took me so fricking long to finish my post (interruptions!) that there have been two more posts in the mean time....
Thank you ido1957. Singing is something I do out of necessity, I don't particularly like the tone of my voice but I feel like when I get it how I want it, it can work.
 
Ok, I am going to pull up the file and describe as accurately as I can what I did on the mix I posted. Give me a few.

:)
 
Jimmy, it sounds amazing! Thank you. I listen and I'm like, huh, that's my voice?

Yep, that is you. :)

When it gets to the verse, the difference is incredible. There is a terrific increase in intensity and excitement which was really lacking in mine. The vocals seem to blend together a lot better and are just more pleasant.

I noticed that it seems like you did something (EQ?) to the kick drum (to differentiate from the bass guitar?)

Did you mean 'Chorus'? We can go into what I did there more, but in that group there is a de-ess, two compressors (used very lightly-one to control the peaks with fast attack and 10:1 ratio, and the other at lower ratio and attack to smooth out a bit), and an eq (hard to describe this one as it is a Pultec type. It cuts and boosts around the same frequency, but HPF at 70hz. Boost at 4k and 10k). 'PSP Noble Qex' is the plug. All sent to a reverb, slight vocal doubler and the obvious delay, which has a reverb on it directly so that the delayed track sounds a bit distant.

Actually, I added a sample to the kick drum. The original had a tail that sounded distorted (likely just a poor quality sample). I couldn't clean it up so I added one with a clearer attack so that it was not so dark and in the background. And yes, this was so that the bass was able to come out clearer.


And less reverb overall obviously...

Yes, I always try to use as little reverb as possible when starting a mix. More important to get the instruments working first, then add where needed later. I feel I should have used more to keep with your goal, but again I was just doing this as if it were up to me. I can always add more and make the mix 'darker'


And in the beginning the piano and bass parts are much more differentiated from each other. I'm assuming that that is EQ at work...

I cant find a way to get my screenshot to take a snapshot of the plugin I used for eq on the piano. It leaves the screen as soon as I open it. That would be the easiest way to show what I did. Man, this sucks..

Anyway, bass guitar has no specific eq, though the plugin I used for it does have eq adjustments but is more of a compressor/saturation coloring tool. 'PSP Vintage Warmer'. I will post phone pics of the settings I used. As I stated earlier in the thread, there are ways you can do this with free plugs but you would likely need to compensate if going for this particular sound.


The vocal mouth-smacking sounds: nasty. I sang the verses really close the mic, didn't use the pop filter because it was in the way, and I was clutching the mic in both hands. So you're saying this isn't a good technique?! (I was trying to make it sound intimate, which I do think worked but the extraneous mouth sounds are a negative side-effect.) I did use a lot of volume automation to drop down the volume of some of the consonants, esp. the "k" sounds. Can you tell me if that is the same technique you use edit them out, or something different?

Not really. It was obvious the noises that were introduced. I have had good good experience with metal singers using a SM7b held in hand, but it is a dynamic mic and the distance from the grille to the diaphragm made it work. Plus a dynamic is not so sensitive to the vibrations introduced by holding the mic. I would not ever suggest hand holding a condenser mic ever. Use a pop filter and get as close as needed to get the sound you wish. Usually you don't have to get that close with a condenser, but then it depends on the mic.

In Cubase, I cut at the point of the mouth noises. Short fade in and out on both sides.


Now you said you used EQ and compression to get the "air out of my voice". What does that mean? To much breathiness? Like too much breath and not enough tone? Is this something I fix in performance or mixing? I ended up not using any EQ or compression on the lead vocal in the chorus because I didn't think it made it sound any better. So I just left it alone. I did some random and ineffective compression and EQ on the harmony parts that was useless. If you can give me more direction on EQ and compression for the vocals I would appreciate it.

By 'Air out of your voice' I meant bringing forward (more clear) the air in your voice. This means the quality of your voice that involves the actual air movement being there. When recorded as you did, there was necessity to cut out some of the pops and mouth movements, because when the eq and compression were added to bring that out, it also accented the bad stuff. Fix in using a pop filter while recording even if going for the personality of a intimate vocal.


Thanks for pointing out the lyrics error. Worth fixing.

:)

Darkness. Yes, my personal preference is for lots of bass and reverb, if that's what you mean by darkness.

I am down to either mix another version or whatever. I just found the song very cool and wanted to show a different aspect as to what can be done. I am not trying to persuade you or say what your mix needs. Only giving another perspective. I think the song is awesome, and think this song needs to be a bit more 'dark' than my first mix.

And yeah, what is micro shift?

We got that already I think. Love that thing! It is used on all of your synths, chorus vocal and piano to bring them to life. It is just a slight chorus type of effect that does not actually bring things out of phase. Just slight pitch shift and slight delay. :)


Now with all of this, I want to say that I enjoyed spending time with your tracks and it was also a learning experience for me. It is a pleasure to work with extremely talented musicians (such as you) in genres I do not have opportunity to get a chance to experiment with. If you wish, I can send you tracks with some of the effects I used and you can mix them yourself. I am by no means trying to say what works for you. I am only giving what I heard in my head and hopefully any of it is something that you might use yourself in future mixes.

Plus, I may ask you to sing some tracks for a project in the future. That would be very cool! :)

Jimmy
 
Chili: interesting point about the listening environment. I was assuming the differences in mixing was about 95% technical knowledge and about 5% subjective preference but now I wonder. I do have some monitors in a medium-sized, finished basement. But I do most of the mixing on headphones and then just check it when I like what I have what I like and make final adjustments on the monitors. For whatever I choose to finish next I think I will make a real effort to mix on the monitors (mostly) and see what happens.

Thank you for the encouragement. It means a lot since I don't have anyone in person that I bounce things off of.

There is much to be said about your monitoring environment. Likely the most misunderstood by those recording at home environments - yet tons of people who have realized the importance. It really has the most to do with how much quality recording means to anyone who does this.

We all take steps in making the best of what we have. Some of us wish to go to the next level. It is funny that the next level is cheaper than the gear we buy... Many have a hard time understanding that.

Treating your room acoustically is the best purchase or DIY project you will ever do if serious about recording. Hands down...

Now you have at least two people that you can 'bounce things' off of that will not bullshit you. :)
 
I really like the vocals in this one, they sound terrific to me. Is that like a chorus or some sort of stereo effect on the lead vocal? They sound nice and wide. Great harmonies too, really tight. I'm listening on a really dark 4.1 system, so the high end is lost on me but this sounds really good.

I wouldn't mind hearing more of the instrumentation (except the keys), but then again I don't want to hear the vocals get covered up either. The keys sound a little canned, but not bad. Overall, great job!
 
I really like what Jimmy has done with this. Turned out a really nice, polished version with a very tight, clear mix.

That said, I still really like the quirkiness of the original mix. There's something to be said for those that don't really know how to get the sound they want instinctively but find it by playing around. In my opinion.

Good stuff all round. I still love the song. :thumbs up:
 
Wow, sounds great. You guys did some really good work together.

I love the song, great chorus. The song has an unusual groove that works very well and makes the tune sound unique.

Great job, nice work on the mix Jimmy.
 
I would try and have the lead vocal up close and breathy in the first verse. I would then build it up in the second verse. The verses have no build up. I like this song. I think it lends itself to some variation to give the listener the impression of of a crescendo in the lyrics and the melody. The chorus also could be a bit more emotional. Push yourself more and I thin you will be happy with the results
 
Hey, this is the first of yours I've heard Jessica. Really like the song and arrangement. I think Jimmy really brought out the best of it, as has been said - but then, Jimmy is super good at all this. Personally, I'd like more of the chorus energy to have held into the second verse, but that's just me. Awesome stuff though - I'm going to put this on my ipod if you don't object. Thanks for sharing.
 
I have been listening to this quite often and I would have to agree with you about the chorus Jonny D. Oh and 'shucks'. :)
 
Jessica, I really like what you do with words. You have a facility for lyrics that just seems to evade me. Your lyrics come out sounding like poetry, mine tend to sound like a stock exchange report.

I really liked what Jimmy did with the mix on this. One of the things you tend to do is underrate your voice; and I can understand, because I hate my voice (but its mostly what I have to work with). I think that two things would be helpful, and I noted that Jimmy dealt with a few of these things in his mix -- 1) Use a mic stand and a pop filter; you'll find that it forces a better "proximity" limit between your mouth and the mic, and it also eliminates most of the "boinks and thuds" you get when you're hand holding or otherwise touching the mic; and 2) I would tend to leave your rhythm tracks without much or any reverb, to keep them crisp. Use the reverb to best benefit on voice or instruments that are up in the vocal range.

I also liked the chimes at the beginning -- and I'm actually not sure I'd change them -- they're a dead ringer :facepalm: for the wall clock hanging in my bedroom, with all of those heavy harmonic overtones. They suggest a clock bell rather than a church bell, if that's the effect you were going for. . .

Really nice work, from you and from Jimmy. :D
 
That synth sound that comes in on the left at about 1.30 and gets really prominent about 1.48 - it's kinda cheesy the way it moves against the marching rhythm of the main tune. :) But you're in range, and it's a cool tune.

Lyrics: a nice approach. I think you could do this again in another song and make it even more powerful. It's like a variation of irony. I like it.
 
I liked the song as well but there`s something I would like to say about the vocals.

This particular vocal is quite stylized. Right now I'd call it Pomplamoose meets Jewel`... Its characteristics are short, breathy phrases, with a lot up upper palate head voice and note shaping, and some fixed jaw, closed cavity lip articulation. There`s nothing wrong with a stylized vocal - that`s an artistic decision that you make as an artist (and what a producer might help you make). The danger with stylized performance vocals is that the style itself becomes both dominant and self conscious and the lyric delivery and the emotional delivery of the lyrics can get overshadowed and/or ignored. In this particular performance I think you put too much emphasis on style and not enough on delivering the vocal message of the song.

An illustration: 4 Non-Blondes' Linda Perry probably delivered one of the most stylized vocal performances ever with "What's Up". Her stylizations were pretty extreme (and some people hated them) but What's Up is a masterclass of emotiveness in a where where style enhances lyrics. The lyrics are dripping with emotion as Perry sings. It's a very emotional song and it resonated with a lot of people.

I heard that same song as an Asian cover version on the radio in 1993 when I lived in Indonesia for a while. Done by an Asian singer (and to this day I don't know if it was a man or a woman) in full imitation of Linda's style and vocal delivery, every nuance and theatric of that original vocal was reproduced - even enhanced. It was amazing in and of itself. All the timbre, textures and inflections were there. But the problem was that it was obvious the singer didn't understand the lyrics -- the words were essentially contentless-- stripped away of meaning. Sure there was enormous emotion portrayed by the singer with a precision of mimicry that you'd marvel at --- but the song was essentially dead. That's the danger (and an extreme example) of how style can kill a vocal. Style has to come second -- or better yet style has to be derived from the unique intersection of the artist and the interpretation of the lyric.

I find your composition incredibly mature, but I'm not connecting to the lyrics because I feel the vocal style has been imposed over them not derived from them.

As an exercise I'd like to see you play with singing this song straight with no focus on style and just a focus on delivering the lyric and the message of the lyric. Really mediate on them and let the lyrics reveal to you where the drama is --- let texture and colour emerge from the exercise of singing straight. I think if you do this you'll be better able to marry style and substance and this track will resonate much deeper with its intended audience (because I think you are close).

I suggest this because I do think you are very very close here and that this composition could make it to downtown - it's that good for the genre/age of your demographic.

Good luck and thanks for sharing this - I probably listened to it 10 times and it still carried my attention. Very cool.
 
Jimmy: Thank you very much for all the specifics of what you did. There is A LOT to think about there. (One of the easy ones is, I won't hold the mic like that anymore!) I'd like to try to mix it again myself, but on the other hand I feel like I have to learn quite a bit before I'll be able to do a significantly better job than I did the first time.

My idiot cat just peed on the foam pads for my monitors, so that's a step in the wrong direction of my monitoring environment. But I am going to move that higher up my list of priorities for sure.

Jozk: Thank you. If you're listening to my mix, the verse vocals are sung twice, and then panned slightly left and right. I always appreciate any support for my singing, since I consider this to be my weakest area (ok, well mixing is probably my weakest) but simply having confidence is really important to getting the best vocal possible.

Mr. Clean: I feel like right now my skill level is sort of "this is the sound I was aiming for" but still far from being about to execute it.

Thanks PDP!

mspin: Thanks. Some others have said similar things and I'm going to think about it.

Jonny Deep: That's so great that you're enjoying listening to it! That's the dream, right? Another comment about needing more build up...any ideas how? Are we talking about making it louder, or change the arrangement? I'm not sure about it though because actually verse 2 is probably my favorite sounding part of the song.

Paddedcell: Thank you for the kind words about my lyrics! It takes me about a week to write lyrics for a song if I do nothing else with my free time...I end up with about 20 pages worth and there is some super stupid !#$#@ on those pages I tell you...

I agree with your two points. And after looking for some samples I don't think I can replace the chimes, at least not until I find something better. Yes, Jimmy did a terrific job!

Dobro: Aw, cheesy, man? Thanks for the feedback though!

Dogsoverlava: I really like your name. It was very interesting to read your take on my vocals. I can tell you that I decided to sing this straight and expressionless _because_ I felt like the lyrics were so full of emotion as to be bordering on melodramatic. And I've noticed that sometimes saying it straight can actually cut deeper. If that makes any sense. (Also, it reveals less flaws in my singing skills if I don't hold notes!) I took a look at your website, looks cool!

Thanks for the time and thought from everyone who posted here. I am going to have to invest some serious time in listening to some others' stuff on here and figuring out something relevant to say.
 
Another comment about needing more build up...any ideas how? Are we talking about making it louder, or change the arrangement? I'm not sure about it though because actually verse 2 is probably my favorite sounding part of the song.

It's not the build up I have issue with. It's that after the first chorus all the energy disappears as you go into the second verse. That might be what you're wanting stylistically, and that's fine, but for me the whole thing kind of sinks. If you listen to any pop/rock music, you'll find it common to build up to the chorus, then when it's over, some of the energy that defines the chorus remains in the second verse to keep things going and stop it from falling all the way back to the beginning.

In your song, after the chorus, you drop everything that's been built and add the low, raspy synth sound - that's all fine but it loses too much. I kind of thought it might be a good point to bring in a drum kit.

As ever, this is all just my opinion and taste - you don't have to conform to it, but I think the song would be a lot better if you don't pull it all back at that point.
 
Jimmy: Thank you very much for all the specifics of what you did. There is A LOT to think about there. (One of the easy ones is, I won't hold the mic like that anymore!) I'd like to try to mix it again myself, but on the other hand I feel like I have to learn quite a bit before I'll be able to do a significantly better job than I did the first time.

My idiot cat just peed on the foam pads for my monitors, so that's a step in the wrong direction of my monitoring environment. But I am going to move that higher up my list of priorities for sure.

Jozk: Thank you. If you're listening to my mix, the verse vocals are sung twice, and then panned slightly left and right. I always appreciate any support for my singing, since I consider this to be my weakest area (ok, well mixing is probably my weakest) but simply having confidence is really important to getting the best vocal possible.

Mr. Clean: I feel like right now my skill level is sort of "this is the sound I was aiming for" but still far from being about to execute it.

Thanks PDP!

mspin: Thanks. Some others have said similar things and I'm going to think about it.

Jonny Deep: That's so great that you're enjoying listening to it! That's the dream, right? Another comment about needing more build up...any ideas how? Are we talking about making it louder, or change the arrangement? I'm not sure about it though because actually verse 2 is probably my favorite sounding part of the song.

Paddedcell: Thank you for the kind words about my lyrics! It takes me about a week to write lyrics for a song if I do nothing else with my free time...I end up with about 20 pages worth and there is some super stupid !#$#@ on those pages I tell you...

I agree with your two points. And after looking for some samples I don't think I can replace the chimes, at least not until I find something better. Yes, Jimmy did a terrific job!

Dobro: Aw, cheesy, man? Thanks for the feedback though!

Dogsoverlava: I really like your name. It was very interesting to read your take on my vocals. I can tell you that I decided to sing this straight and expressionless _because_ I felt like the lyrics were so full of emotion as to be bordering on melodramatic. And I've noticed that sometimes saying it straight can actually cut deeper. If that makes any sense. (Also, it reveals less flaws in my singing skills if I don't hold notes!) I took a look at your website, looks cool!

Thanks for the time and thought from everyone who posted here. I am going to have to invest some serious time in listening to some others' stuff on here and figuring out something relevant to say.

Great and mature follow up from Jessica here. I have more to say but I think this follow up is worth having its own response. Makes it easy when people engage like this to similarly engage.
 
Paddedcell: Thank you for the kind words about my lyrics! It takes me about a week to write lyrics for a song if I do nothing else with my free time...I end up with about 20 pages worth and there is some super stupid !#$#@ on those pages I tell you...

Yup, I know this feeling well. My house is full of scraps of paper and receipts etc with bits of lyrics scrawled on them. Most of them absolute crap, but you have to trawl through that as part of the process I think.

Jimmy's mix sounds really good, and he's a great guy for taking this on. It looks like this thread's already sinking under the weight of suggestions, so I won't add any more to the pile - just to say I enjoyed listening to it and following its evolution. It made me think a little of Rilo Kiley - who are a band I've not thought about for a long time... :thumbs up:
 
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