Undoing Vocal Lessons?

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4tracker

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Hey all. My GF had vocal lessons as a kid. She was in choir for 8 years, took private lessons from a classically trained instructor, etc. It's made her very "stiff" when performing rock music, anything with syncopated vocals/odd phrasing, glissando, and overall vocal rhythmic feel. She has great tone and pitch.

Any advice on how to untrain this from her? How to get her to loosen up and get better feel? I told her to just listen to records that have that style and sing along.

Also, is this common with people who get formal choir/classical training?
 
4tracker said:
Hey all. My GF had vocal lessons as a kid. She was in choir for 8 years, took private lessons from a classically trained instructor, etc. It's made her very "stiff" when performing rock music, anything with syncopated vocals/odd phrasing, and overall vocal rhythmic feel. She has great tone and pitch but lacks feel.

Any advice on how to untrain this from her? How to get her to loosen up and get better feel? I told her to just listen to records that have that style and sing along.

Also, is this common with people who get formal choir/classical training?
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It can be, especially if the training is incorrect. The voice shouldn't be more polished, but really more raw/plain/free. That is what true opera is.

Also, there can be a very insidious form of abuse from teachers - no matter how nice they may seem - if they stomp on a student's sense of what is musical and expressive. If they take that out by stepping on a student's own sense of what is musical, it can cause a lack of confidence in one's own ability to communicate well.

Sometimes a teacher does have to ask a student to take out some things, either to fix their technique underneath or to aid them in what is expected in certain styles (expression in opera or classical is different than in rock). In this case, the intention is good and it's necessary, but sometimes a teacher is not sensitive to how it affects the student's self-esteem.

To undo this, she needs to *watch* as well as listen to effective singers perform. It helps if it's an actual song that she wants to sing. She shouldn't imitate that person, but perhaps find a few videos of people doing it to gather ideas for herself. Chances are she needs to free up her body and then the rest will come. But at first, she may need to have specific ideas on what she can do in what parts - almost choreographed. This is a stepping stone to get her to trust herself again. Soon, she will come up with her own ideas.

It's a process, and just be encouraging. Don't offer constructive criticism or say anything about what she did that didn't work - even if she asks. Right now, she just needs to build upon success, no matter how small.
 
4tracker said:
I told her to just listen to records that have that style and sing along.
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I hear ya, My daughter plays violin in these recitals that includes singers. I listen to them and feel bad because I wonder how the heck are they ever going to be able to pull off a pop song or a rock song. They aren't trained for it at all. But I think your one simple advice is the best. Sing along to the songs that matches what you want. With enough practice, just like anything, it'll come to her. And while you're at it, have her sing to a click track. That's another skill that takes practice to learn.
 
Morodiene said:
It can be, especially if the training is incorrect. The voice shouldn't be more polished, but really more raw/plain/free. That is what true opera is.

Also, there can be a very insidious form of abuse from teachers - no matter how nice they may seem - if they stomp on a student's sense of what is musical and expressive. If they take that out by stepping on a student's own sense of what is musical, it can cause a lack of confidence in one's own ability to communicate well.

Sometimes a teacher does have to ask a student to take out some things, either to fix their technique underneath or to aid them in what is expected in certain styles (expression in opera or classical is different than in rock). In this case, the intention is good and it's necessary, but sometimes a teacher is not sensitive to how it affects the student's self-esteem.

To undo this, she needs to *watch* as well as listen to effective singers perform. It helps if it's an actual song that she wants to sing. She shouldn't imitate that person, but perhaps find a few videos of people doing it to gather ideas for herself. Chances are she needs to free up her body and then the rest will come. But at first, she may need to have specific ideas on what she can do in what parts - almost choreographed. This is a stepping stone to get her to trust herself again. Soon, she will come up with her own ideas.

It's a process, and just be encouraging. Don't offer constructive criticism or say anything about what she did that didn't work - even if she asks. Right now, she just needs to build upon success, no matter how small.
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This is gold. You need to hang around here more often. The singing and vocal forum was meant to cover the mechanics and approaches to singing and recording voice, but has become the bin for all the "Can I sing?" wannabes.

Nice to have you here.
 
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Great post, Morodiene.

I have a recording of her vocal up in the mix clinic. It's an alternative rock type song called "Range Life". If you listen to that maybe you can tell me specifics to have her improve upon.

For now I told her to just listen to records and sing along, and also to play her instrument (ukulele) while singing because I thought it would get her mind off the vocal and more into the rhythm if she's strumming.
 
There is such a big difference between singing in a choir and fronting a rock band. Fronting a band requires personality and the ability to communicate a feeling with inflection and note choice. Singing in a choir is about hitting the right note and blending in.

Each genre has its own sort of delivery and the singer will need to internalize the style in order to perform it convincingly.

You can take things from one genre and transplant them in another, but there still needs to be something about what you are doing that belongs in the genre you are playing. For example: you can put opera inspired vocals, or opera techniques in a metal tune, but you can't sing actual opera over a metal tune without it sounding like a parody, or at least out of place.
 
Farview said:
There is such a big difference between singing in a choir and fronting a rock band. Fronting a band requires personality and the ability to communicate a feeling with inflection and note choice. Singing in a choir is about hitting the right note and blending in.

Each genre has its own sort of delivery and the singer will need to internalize the style in order to perform it convincingly.

You can take things from one genre and transplant them in another, but there still needs to be something about what you are doing that belongs in the genre you are playing. For example: you can put opera inspired vocals, or opera techniques in a metal tune, but you can't sing actual opera over a metal tune without it sounding like a parody, or at least out of place.
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Agree Fairview. Do you think someone can be untrained from classic background, or, at least learn to do more contemporary styles? Is it something you're either born with or not? Can something like note selection and feeling be learned or are they innate decisions derived from good "feel"?
 
It's not a matter of taking away from one to learn another. You didn't forget how to play guitar when you learned how to play bass. Or forget how to ride a bike when you learned how to drive a car. It's simply a matter of learning a new skill. Your friend has a solid foundation to build on, opera training. 99% of her task is done already. She's just got to learn a different style. Imagine someone like me trying to learn opera.... no, let's not image that. :D
 
4tracker said:
Agree Fairview. Do you think someone can be untrained from classic background, or, at least learn to do more contemporary styles? Is it something you're either born with or not? Can something like note selection and feeling be learned or are they innate decisions derived from good "feel"?
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Of course it can be learned. The easiest way would be to do covers. Doing covers takes the note selection and all that out of the equation. After doing covers for a while, some of the mannerisms of the people she is covering will sink in and come together to become her style.

Then there is the question of stage presence...

You can teach someone to be a rock star, but you need a competent teacher. That will be the biggest hurdle.
 
Chili said:
This is gold. You need to hang around here more often. The singing and vocal forum was meant to cover the mechanics and approaches to singing and recording voice, but has become the bin for all the "Can I sing?" wannabes.

Nice to have you here.
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Thank you! I do wonder why people post things like "can I sing" anyways. Most of them know what the answer is, and it can be very painful for us LOL.
 
4tracker said:
Agree Fairview. Do you think someone can be untrained from classic background, or, at least learn to do more contemporary styles? Is it something you're either born with or not? Can something like note selection and feeling be learned or are they innate decisions derived from good "feel"?
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I don't think untraining is necessary. The voice is a voice. Do you have to relearn how to play acoustic piano for rock if you can play classical piano? Not at all. You already know how to play, it's just a matter of understanding the different genre and the qualities that make it sound like it is.

In singing opera, there is much more use of vibrato, there is portamento (a slide with vibrato) and many various musical techniques that are commonly used. If you applied these to a pop song, it would sound awful. In pop, there are far fewer sustained notes, not much if any vibrato at all, slides, etc. Once you learn what these specific things are, if you know how to sing, you will know how to apply these.

I've been operatically trained, so it's simple for me to sing rock/pop and musical theater, as it should be for anyone who wants to sing other styles. The training just builds up the muscles for optimal projection and harmonics, that's all.
 
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Farview said:
You can take things from one genre and transplant them in another, but there still needs to be something about what you are doing that belongs in the genre you are playing. For example: you can put opera inspired vocals, or opera techniques in a metal tune, but you can't sing actual opera over a metal tune without it sounding like a parody, or at least out of place.
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This is interesting to hear, and I must agree. Any time I've heard "operatic" vocals in metal, it's not operatic to me. It's not really singing full out.

But I am curious as to why you think it sounds like a parody or out of place when it's done in a more legit operatic way.
 
The biggest problem I've had with people from the choir is having them think that since they have been trained, they are automatically awesome. And, of course, you're just an asshole for pointing out that it doesn't sound right.

Every so often I would work with a symphony orchestra (an actual, world class one which shall remain nameless). I would run sound for them when they were doing a pops concert, because it would involve singers, guitar players, or other solo instruments that are not traditionally in an orchestra. When they do these things, they are playing songs that are not classical, they are pop tunes or show tunes or big band, etc... A lot of times, when asked to do a swing, or when anyone needs to adlib a solo or something, it ends up not being very good. These are world class musicians and they can't do these things because it simply isn't what they were trained to do. I'm sure any of them could pick it up and add it to their training, but it just goes to show that, even when you are considered a master of your instrument, it doesn't mean that you can do everything that the instrument is capable of.
 
My gf just read the thread and wanted me to post for her (she didn't want to register) and comment/ask some questions. Here's what she asked me to post:

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the help. I'm not an opera singer at all btw, I think there was a misunderstanding somewhere.
I was only a choral singer and then took lessons for several years.
My choral instructor wanted us to straight sing ONLY with no vibrato whatsoever and was obsessive about perfect pitch and blending.

I think there's a psychological issue and training issue going on at the same time.

for the training portion:
-I sing stiff and have too much control
-My voice is mostly straight singing with no vibrato, so not expressive.
-I am sometimes uncomfortable with complex rhythms and syncopation.


for the psychological issues:
-I listen to a ton of different music but it doesn't internalize and make me any looser when I sing.
-I get nervous singing solos and frequently second guess what I'm doing as I'm singing.
-lately I've been lacking confidence because I feel like I can't sing expressively in a pop setting.


questions for Farview:

"Fronting a band requires personality and the ability to communicate a feeling with inflection and note choice."
I lack all of this and I don't really know how to achieve it. how do I improve?

Each genre has its own sort of delivery and the singer will need to internalize the style in order to perform it convincingly.

How do you do internalize it and how can I practice it to make that happen? I want to improve my delivery and looseness. Not sound so robotic and "dead inside" as 4tracker has told me before. I guess I don't know how to communicate emotions when I sing.

"The biggest problem I've had with people from the choir is having them think that since they have been trained, they are automatically awesome."

Not that it matters, but I feel the opposite and have no confidence, especially on rock/pop songs. I guess those people are pretty huge assholes, but then again, I never fit into the choral/theatre crowd lol.
 
The easiest way to get better is to copy people who do it well. Don't worry about being original, that will come later.

Confidence will come when you start nailing the covers. Eventually, you won't have to think about the performance.
 
I'm gonna suggest the radical technique of drunken karaoke. Go get pretty tipsy (not blackout, but "confident"). Do some karaoke of rock songs that you like. Tell yourself "I'm a rock star!" throughout. (having a good crowd of drunken and enthusiastic friends will help this) And film the whole thing for private review and critique later.

Her technique in general seems timid and withdrawn. The energy of a crowd and the decreased inhibitions of booze should help with those. The dude from pavement sings like he's drunk anyway, so if she slurs her words, all the better. Then she can watch the recording and see what it looks like when she's singing with mediocre technique but high confidence. Then train off those tapes and learn to do it sober.
 
I'm not sure adding a crutch that could prove to be hard to get rid of is an awesome idea.

The best way to go about this will depend on how you learn best. Some people, like me, study things and pick them apart to learn how they work. Then once you do that, you can go about doing it yourself.

Other people feel their way through, some are just naturals and simply needs a little direction.

If you already have intonation and control, simply mimic the delivery of others for a while. No alcohol necessary.

karaoke isn't a bad idea, but requires a little confidence, or at least a 'what the hell' sort of attitude.
 
My wife came from a very similar place. She was a choir singer from the beginning and did it pretty much all through high school. I met her shortly after she was graduated. I liked her voice from the start, but she definitely had more of a restrained, controlled sound. I specifically remember encouraging her to open up and let it out several times (only because she had been asking about it). That was 15 years ago. Nowadays, she's got a great style (IMHO). She doesn't bust out like Adele or even a Melissa Etheridge---that's just not her bag---but she has a great personality to her voice and conveys emotion well.

Here's her and I doing a Neil Young tune so you can make your own judgment.

https://soundcloud.com/chad-l-johnson/the-housecats-after-the

All this is to say that she did pretty much exactly what you told your girlfriend to do. Just listen to and imitate (not to the point of absurdity, obviously) the kind of singing you like.

It's funny, because I wasn't familiar with "Range Life," and while I was listening to y'all's cover, I was thinking, "She's already pretty good ... it's a little pitchy here and there, but she's definitely on her way." Then I listened to the original Pavement version and realized ... "Oh ... she's not being pitchy ... she was just imitating what she heard on the original recording!" :)
 
I have to chime in and say I don't think her style or approach is a bad thing and has an individual quirky feel that could make a marketable sound. Listen to Camera Obscura, great band your gf reminded me of her style (sadly departed) if you sorted out the minor pitch issues you could be on to a winner. Why change? :)

EDIT the pitch comment was about the first example, the Neil Young tune is perfect..... Nuffin wrong with that.
 
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