Understanding cables!

L

luca.staffiere

New member
Hallo everyone! I am just starting to build my homerecording studio and read a book from the "for dummies" series that gave me some hints. But something about the cords I should use to link my gear is not so clear:

Basically there is this first difference between TS and TRS, one of them is unbalanced, the other instead balanced, thus providing more isolation from noise. The second is a better option when the cable is long. Then a cable can carry little current (for instrument) or a lot of current (for speakers). Question is:

1) Just how much is this current and how do I understand from the package if a cable is meant for an instrument or for speakers?
2) the wording TS and TRS also doesn't appear on the pack. Usually I was told that TRS have this double plastic ring so they are visually recognisable, but sometime I find names like "stereo cable" or "balanced cables" on cables that look like TS cable. How can I be sure?
3) What is meant by long cable and short cable? Is a 3m cable short or long? In other words, is it worth spending more money to have a balanced 3m cable?
4) How exactly do Y cable work? if I link a Y cable from the output of my keybord (a casio CDP.100) and put the two endings in two different traks, I do get two different signals that reproduce a stereo sound? how come the two ends look like TS? does that mean the whole thing is unbalanced?

Gosh, I do kinda regret the old days in wich I was just buying random cords for my gutar :p

I thank in advance anyone who would help me :D
 
Balanced/Unbalanced is completely up to the devices to which you're connecting. The cable is just a cable. It either has two wires (TS) in which case it pretty much can't carry a true balanced signal, or it has three (TRS).

A cable intended for speakers will have the TS plugs (or some other connector - banana plug, speakon, bare wire...) on both ends, and the two wires in the cable itself will be separate insulated wires, rather than one insulated core wire with the second wrapped around it as a shield. You don't want to use a shielded cable for high power amplifier>speaker connections for several reasons.

A cable intended for unbalanced instrument or line level signals will have the TS plugs (or some other connector, RCA etc...) on both ends, but these will be shielded as mentioned above. You want this shielding here to help reject noise because the relative level of the desired signal is so much smaller than that between an amp and a speaker.

The only way to really tell the difference, if it's not written somewhere on the cable itself or the packaging, is to unscrew one end and see if you can tell whether it's shielded or not. That's not always that easy to see, depending on how the manufacturer dressed things up...

A cable meant for balanced connection will have one TRS plugs (or XLR...) on each end (and yes, there might be a TRS on one end and an XLR on the other). It will always be shielded because it's always meant for line level or lower signals, which need all the noise rejection they can get.

However, the two internal wires in these cables can actually be used for anything where you might need two wires, and it's really the jack that you plug it into that decides whether it's actually a balanced connection or not. Headphone connections, for example, almost universally use a TRS connection where the T and S make an unbalanced connection for the left side, and the R and S make an unbalanced connection for the right side. More on that in a minute.

If there's one TS on one end and one TRS on the other, then it's made to connect balanced to unbalanced. There are a number of ways to accomplish that, partly depending on whether the source or destination is the balanced side, so let's not go too far down that road right now.

A proper Y-cable is nothing but a passive splitter. It should have exactly the same type of plug all the way around, and the same signal will appear on all three. It can't be used for a true stereo connection where each side has a different signal.

If there is one TRS on one end and two TS on the other, then it is more likely than not something that can be called either a "stereo split" or an "insert" cable. Here, like in the headphone example above, the T on the TRS end goes to the T on one of the other plugs, with the S going to the T of the other other plug, and all the Ss connected together. This sends a different signal to each of the TS ends, and can be used for unbalanced connection either of a TRS stereo output (like that headphone jack we talked about) to separate Left and Right side inputs, or in some gear one of the TS will be an output (send) and the other will be an input (return). If you connect the TRS end to a balanced output, and the other ends to about anything, you'll have the same signal on both, except one will be inverted in polarity such that when summed together you get silence.

I hope this helps...
 
Ashcat's explanation is thorough!

So what are you trying to plug together, and are they balanced or unbalanced connectors

TS - Tip Sleeve
TRS - Tip Ring Sleeve

In the picture below 1 = sleeve, 2 = ring, 3 = tip, 4 = insulation material. The top plug is TRS, the bottom TS.

ts-trs.jpg
 
ashcat_lt said:
Balanced/Unbalanced is completely up to the devices to which you're connecting. The cable is just a cable. It either has two.....
I hope this helps...
Click to expand...

mjbphotos said:
Ashcat's explanation is thorough!

So what are you trying to plug together, and are they balanced or unbalanced connectors

TS - Tip Sleeve
TRS - Tip Ring Sleeve

In the picture below 1 = sleeve, 2 = ring, 3 = tip, 4 = insulation material. The top plug is TRS, the bottom TS.

View attachment 89362
Click to expand...

It's actually complicated I'll look it up again tomorrow when it's not 2 o clock in the morning.
I actually want to understand it since it's not just about getting the right gear for this occasion but it's about realising what the heck am I doing.

But for now let's try a different approach. I have an audio interface with an input that supports both TS and TSR (and mic actually, it's the focusrite). I want to record a keybord, namely the CASIO PX 100. I basically have to link the speakers, wich will happen from the output where I usually put my headphones when I train. I think this could happen either throu unbalanced TS mono cords (actually one of the first question was if the three things have to be always together, e.g is there such thing as a stereo unbalanced cord?) or throu a TRS (like the headphones, thos are always TRS right?). One other thing I just noticed is that I need to convers the jack of the keybord from 1mm to 6mm.

Now, to get the best sound, wich gear should I buy? I stardet waching up this cords on Thomann

the sssnake SPP2015
thomannArtNr.:153135 2,90 EUR

the sssnake YPP20303,77 EUR

the sssnake SPP2030the sssnake
3,90 EUR

pro snake TRS Audio Cable 3,0m 11,90 EUR

Cordial CFM 3,0 VVthomannCordial CFM 3,0 VV

Anyway thanks for the replies!
 
ashcat_lt said:
Balanced/Unbalanced is completely up to the devices to which you're connecting. The cable is just a cable. It either has two wires (TS) in which case it pretty much can't carry a true balanced signal, or it has three (TRS).
Ok, that's a good specification

A cable intended for speakers will have the TS plugs (or some other connector - banana plug, speakon, bare wire...) on both ends, and the two wires in the cable itself will be separate insulated wires, rather than one insulated core wire with the second wrapped around it as a shield. You don't want to use a shielded cable for high power amplifier>speaker connections for several reasons.

A cable intended for unbalanced instrument or line level signals will have the TS plugs (or some other connector, RCA etc...) on both ends, but these will be shielded as mentioned above. You want this shielding here to help reject noise because the relative level of the desired signal is so much smaller than that between an amp and a speaker.

The only way to really tell the difference, if it's not written somewhere on the cable itself or the packaging, is to unscrew one end and see if you can tell whether it's shielded or not. That's not always that easy to see, depending on how the manufacturer dressed things up...

ok, so basically I should remember TSshielded-low impendence TSdoublewire-hig. Here I have a question, what's the difference between instrument line and speaker when refferring to a cord? I thought line is like the same cord as for speaker but u say that line cable can be shielded

A cable meant for balanced connection will have one TRS plugs (or XLR...) on each end (and yes, there might be a TRS on one end and an XLR on the other). It will always be shielded because it's always meant for line level or lower signals, which need all the noise rejection they can get.

However, the two internal wires in these cables can actually be used for anything where you might need two wires, and it's really the jack that you plug it into that decides whether it's actually a balanced connection or not.
means if jack is unbalanced, then the cable doesn't make difference.

Headphone connections, for example, almost universally use a TRS connection where the T and S make an unbalanced connection for the left side, and the R and S make an unbalanced connection for the right side. More on that in a minute.
hmhm good I understand

If there's one TS on one end and one TRS on the other, then it's made to connect balanced to unbalanced. There are a number of ways to accomplish that, partly depending on whether the source or destination is the balanced side, so let's not go too far down that road right now.
ok, but let's say the source is unbalanced (as maybe my keybord is, since the out goes throu a TSR that basically leads to the two unbalanced sides of the headphones as u put it)


A proper Y-cable is nothing but a passive splitter. It should have exactly the same type of plug all the way around, and the same signal will appear on all three. It can't be used for a true stereo connection where each side has a different signal.

If there is one TRS on one end and two TS on the other, then it is more likely than not something that can be called either a "stereo split" or an "insert" cable. Here, like in the headphone example above, the T on the TRS end goes to the T on one of the other plugs, with the S going to the T of the other other plug, and all the Ss connected together. This sends a different signal to each of the TS ends, and can be used for unbalanced connection either of a TRS stereo output (like that headphone jack we talked about) to separate Left and Right side inputs, or in some gear one of the TS will be an output (send) and the other will be an input (return). If you connect the TRS end to a balanced output, and the other ends to about anything, you'll have the same signal on both, except one will be inverted in polarity such that when summed together you get silence.
ok this was too much for my brainXD


I hope this helps...
Click to expand...

answers in the quote
 
The headphone output on your Casio is stereo (unbalanced) that uses a TRS style plug, with 1,2,3 being common, left and right (not necessarily in that order, but you don't need to know that.
You need a basic stereo splitter Y cable to go from it to two inputs on your interface. Something like THIS ONE.
 
mjbphotos said:
The headphone output on your Casio is stereo (unbalanced) that uses a TRS style plug, with 1,2,3 being common, left and right (not necessarily in that order, but you don't need to know that.
You need a basic stereo splitter Y cable to go from it to two inputs on your interface. Something like THIS ONE.
Click to expand...
Or this one. Are you sure it's actually 1mm? Not 3.5mm? Can you plug your earbuds into it without an adapter?


Anyway, who said anything about impedance? It's really all about the voltage across the cable, though it is sometimes tied to impedance.

If the voltage is low (any connection up to the input of the power amp), then you want the cable shielded, and would really prefer to have it balanced.

If the voltage is high - like the connection from power amp to passive speaker (a powered "active" speaker will have this connection made inside of it already) - then you don't really need to shield it, and it can actually be dangerous to do so.

Headphone connections would almost seem to live somewhere in between, since they are meant to drive a speaker just like a power amp does on a slightly smaller scale. It doesn't take a whole hell of a lot of voltage to shake those little speakers, though. I found quite by accident a bit over a month ago that most line level inputs will drive headphones reasonably well. I've known for years, though, that headphone outputs can drive line inputs just fine. They can sometimes push more voltage than the line input can handle, but we're talking about distortion that can be cured by turning down the source. If you plug a proper power amp output intended for a speaker into a line input, there very well could smoke coming from one or more devices.

But just because...Actual speaker connections (power amp to passive speaker) are always a hell of a lot lower impedance than anything on the other side of the power amp. It can be two, three, six orders of magnitude difference in impedance, and usually at least a couple in voltage.
 
ashcat_lt said:
If you plug a proper power amp output intended for a speaker into a line input, there very well could smoke coming from one or more devices.
Click to expand...


what´s the difference betwee line, instrument and speaker? the line thing is not so clear for me...
anyway the cable needed is exactly the one you linked, now for me the sense of the topic is more about understanding those question I have in general.
 
Last edited:
Instrument really means passive magnetic pickup, like in most electric guitars and basses that don't have batteries.

Speaker is the high voltage connection from the power amp that makes the speakers themselves flop around.

Line is just about everything else.
 
ashcat_lt said:
Instrument really means passive magnetic pickup, like in most electric guitars and basses that don't have batteries.

Speaker is the high voltage connection from the power amp that makes the speakers themselves flop around.

Line is just about everything else.
Click to expand...

good thanks a lot!
 
ashcat_lt said:
Instrument really means passive magnetic pickup, like in most electric guitars and basses that don't have batteries.

Speaker is the high voltage connection from the power amp that makes the speakers themselves flop around.

Line is just about everything else.
Click to expand...

So in terms of signal strength:

instrument < line < speaker.

If you run an instrument-level signal into a line or speaker input, you won't hear anything because the signal is too weak.
If you run a speaker-level signal into a line or instrument input, you're likely to blow something up.
 
A passive guitar isn't likely to do much plugged directly into a speaker, but I certainly wouldn't say that you "won't hear anything" if you plug it into a Line input. It might be a little weak, and will probably be pretty dark, but it'll make some sound. I record guitars at unity (through a buffer) into Line inputs on a regular basis. The Instrument input on most interfaces has only about 10db gain over the Line input, which isn't all that much really.
 
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