Unchained Melody - First Trial Mix

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NEVER MIND - The vocalist isn't satisfied with his performance so he's going to try and record the vox in a real studio with a higher-end mic.

I recorded these instrument tracks a couple weeks ago and recorded the vocals last night, and it doesn't seem like the vocals are sitting quite right in the mix. I hear the vocals fine and I hear the instrument tracks fine but somehow the vocals and instruments don't blend into a pleasing whole. I dunno if the vocals are too loud or need some compression (I'm cluesless about compression) or what...

Is it just my ears? I'd really appreciate any comments.

 
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Damn, this is beautiful. Why are you re-recording the vocals??? All you need is some gentle compression on the vox! Try 2:1 or 3:1 compression ratio, with 25ms attack and 250ms release, and set the threshold such that it is giving 3ish db of gain reduction at the loudest peaks.

You don't need to re-record these vocals, seriously. You might also try to cut out some of the problem frequencies in the harshness band (2-5k).
 
Brian Miller said:
Damn, this is beautiful. Why are you re-recording the vocals??? All you need is some gentle compression on the vox! Try 2:1 or 3:1 compression ratio, with 25ms attack and 250ms release, and set the threshold such that it is giving 3ish db of gain reduction at the loudest peaks.

You don't need to re-record these vocals, seriously. You might also try to cut out some of the problem frequencies in the harshness band (2-5k).
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Thanks very much for the help, Brian. This tune really pushes the vocalist's limits. I've worked with him for 30 years, give or take, and this is the first thing I've heard him do that really challenged him. I thought the vocal track would be fine once I got it laid into the mix but this guy's a staff singer for a pretty high end jingle house here in Dallas and I guess he just wants a headphone mix he can hear himself in and something better than an SM58 Beta to sing through.

Having said that, the compression really seemed to make a big difference. I don't have much of an ear for that kind of nuance, but the track sounds whole now, and the vocal really smooted out.

I also pulled a bit more of the 2K freq range from the stock "Male Vocal" EQ preset I'm using, which seems to have mellowed out some of the harshness in the louder parts of the track.

I'm not sure I was able to get my Cubase compression VST set according to your suggestion so I've attached a capture of the settings and compressor output at the loudest part of the track.

I'm linking to the new version in this post. If you would, please let me know if I should adjust the settings (I'm really not sure what all those parameters do.

Thanks again for the help, Brian.

 

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Pretty heavy on the reverb - the kick and snare really stick out this way, I'd back way off on those, and back off the reverb on the vocal just a little, too.
 
Compression definitely helps the voice sit in the mix better. Now I'm hearing the vocals are lacking some meat. I would back off the cut at 278 hz. Let some of it back in. And also I would narrow the Q on the band at 2k to a setting of 2-3.

I second mjbphotos about the reverb on the track. Overall just too much, particularly on the vocals and snare drum. Also, you might want to EQ out some of the high end on the reverb.
 
mjbphotos said:
Pretty heavy on the reverb - the kick and snare really stick out this way, I'd back way off on those, and back off the reverb on the vocal just a little, too.
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I don't disagree about the reverb and I know that things are being recorded a lot dryer these days. Maybe I'm going about it the wrong way or just overdoing things, but the vocalist is a huge Phil Spector/Barry Manilow "Wall of Sound" fan, and that's what he's looking for here.

I'm not going to be able to get by without a massive snare drum sound ("Born In The USA" kinda thing) and the guy definitely wants a "power kit" sound, but I'll admit to not having the first idea how to get that huge 80's production ballad drum sound. I'd love to learn how to do that sound right...

As far as the vocal 'verb is concerned, I think I can get away with pulling it back, but again, I won't be able to get away with a very dry vocal track.
 
Thanks again for your help, guys. I made Brian's EQ adjustments and backed way off the vocal and drum reverbs, and I love that I can hear my orchestration again! Great call on the vocal reverb. With everyone's suggested corrections, this track is hugely improved! Latest version posted below.

If I could impose on you just a bit more (and I'm really not trying to get you guys to do my mix for me, just trying to figure out how to get this sound), but I've added a clip of the snare sound we're looking for. Is there a big difference between the heavy reverb I had on the snare and the snare reverb in these clips? Can I get this sound without having too much reverb?

Unchained Melody - Trial Mix 5



Snare sound:

 
Hey man, so everything sounds great now except the snare. Right now it just sounds weak. The extra verb wasn't making it bigger, it was making it muddier. So the problem is in the sound of the snare. Did you record a live drummer for this, or is it a virtual instrument or MIDI drums? If you listen, you'll hear that your snare is a very bright sound, whereas the example you provided is very deep and full. There are a host of ways to go about making yours sound closer, but it depends on what the source was (live drummer, sample, virtual kit, etc).

That massive gated verb snare sound from the 80s is very hard to replicate nowadays. It was produced typically with very expensive drum kits, tuned by expert drum engineers, recorded on very expensive mics, with super high end hardware reverbs and gates. The original Peter Gabriel gated snare sound was an accident!

UPDATE: What you're going to end up wanting to do, in any regard, is starting with a deep snare sound, probably compressing the hell out of it (maybe with parallel compression so that you don't lose all of the original integrity), and playing with a gated reverb until it sounds right. Really hard to tell without my hands on the mix. But the snare you've got in there doesn't sound like a good starting point.
 
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Brian Miller said:
Hey man, so everything sounds great now except the snare. Right now it just sounds weak. The extra verb wasn't making it bigger, it was making it muddier. So the problem is in the sound of the snare. Did you record a live drummer for this, or is it a virtual instrument or MIDI drums? If you listen, you'll hear that your snare is a very bright sound, whereas the example you provided is very deep and full. There are a host of ways to go about making yours sound closer, but it depends on what the source was (live drummer, sample, virtual kit, etc).

That massive gated verb snare sound from the 80s is very hard to replicate nowadays. It was produced typically with very expensive drum kits, tuned by expert drum engineers, recorded on very expensive mics, with super high end hardware reverbs and gates. The original Peter Gabriel gated snare sound was an accident!
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Drums are from one of the presets on my Yamaha S90 synth. I have some other synths and VST's I could go to but since I really don't know what a good recorded kit should sound like, any change I make just using my ears will really be just a shot in the dark. I can probably locate a bigger/deeper snare but I'm going to be limited on time until next.

I replaced the snare in this updated with a somewhat meatier/deeper patch from the S90. Maybe it'll be a better fit for the track.

UPDATE: What you're going to end up wanting to do, in any regard, is starting with a deep snare sound, probably compressing the hell out of it (maybe with parallel compression so that you don't lose all of the original integrity), and playing with a gated reverb until it sounds right. Really hard to tell without my hands on the mix. But the snare you've got in there doesn't sound like a good starting point.
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This is pretty much beyond my skill level (Gated reverb? Parallel compression?) and I feel like I've already imposed upon you enough. Maybe I need to just do more research and homework...

 
Don't have much "technical" advice on how to change things, but here are my impressions: Great vocalist and seems to be right on the money. As far as the music part, the seems to be a little too much attack on the bass that adds a "click" to some of the parts especially the softer parts. Also, that new snare does not seem to go with the rest of it. Too dry, maybe too gated. And the kick sound does not sound right for this type of song. Too much air and not a lot of thump. Thee are just my opinions, but it does sound like you have a great thing going here.
 
Bruthish said:
Don't have much "technical" advice on how to change things, but here are my impressions: Great vocalist and seems to be right on the money. As far as the music part, the seems to be a little too much attack on the bass that adds a "click" to some of the parts especially the softer parts. Also, that new snare does not seem to go with the rest of it. Too dry, maybe too gated. And the kick sound does not sound right for this type of song. Too much air and not a lot of thump. Thee are just my opinions, but it does sound like you have a great thing going here.
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Thanks for the comment, Bruthish. The bass is actually a pretty decent stand-up acoustic without any real attack to speak of, but I'll solo it and listen to it through and see if I can pick up on what you're hearing.

I don't really ike the new snare, either, but I haven't done much looking for an alternate. That was just the deepest snare on my synth's snare menu. I'm working tonight and on the road this weekend but once I get back in town, I'll start hunting up a better sound. It would help if I had a clue about drums... I've been gigging with live drummers for 40 years, but don't have the foggiest idea what makes a good sound or what sound works best for a particular style of music. I do record a lot of pop stuff so if I can figure out how to get a decent kit ironed out for this piece, I'll be able to get a lot of use out of it.

Same issues on the kick... I dont' know what "right" sounds like. Maybe at some point I can get someone to post some samples of the separate drum drum sounds I should be looking for... that's be a big help.

Thanks again for the comments; I apparently have a ton to learn about drum sounds!
 
The mix sounds loads better now (#8) - I couldn't hear the acoustic guitar before due to all the reverb washing out details. The kick and low tom still have too much reverb on them, just get rid of it entirely if you can.
 
cmayo said:
Having said that, the compression really seemed to make a big difference. I don't have much of an ear for that kind of nuance, but the track sounds whole now, and the vocal really smooted out.
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That's my impression as well. The vocal's sitting way better now. However, there's something that's still a bit strident on the final two 'me's at the end - he's really leaning into that vowel - and you might consider a judicious, narrow EQ cut or two to soften it a bit, just on those two 'me's. Originally, you said he was going to retrack it, and I was going to suggest that if he did, suggest that he soften that final 'ee' sound when he sings it. It's a great, big powerful song, but you can't let it become strident.

Very cool take on it. Good work.
 
Brian Miller, I just found your PM from 12/10 but I've tried to reply 3 times and the system doesn't seem to be sending you my responses. I'm at chuck at chuckmayo dotcom if you'd like to ping me there.
 
dobro said:
That's my impression as well. The vocal's sitting way better now. However, there's something that's still a bit strident on the final two 'me's at the end - he's really leaning into that vowel - and you might consider a judicious, narrow EQ cut or two to soften it a bit, just on those two 'me's. Originally, you said he was going to retrack it, and I was going to suggest that if he did, suggest that he soften that final 'ee' sound when he sings it. It's a great, big powerful song, but you can't let it become strident.

Very cool take on it. Good work.
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Hi Dobro, good to hear from you! Sorry for the slow reply... had gigs on the road last weekend and a crazy week at home so far.

I completely agree with your comments on the vocal. This piece is bit too high for him, he's having to push with everything he has after the last modulation, and his vocal tonality just goes out the window. A better engineer could probably salvage the last 45 seconds, but I may wind up dropping the key a step and re-recording the entire orchestration (sigh) so he can take another run at it.

I wish I could take credit for the arrangement, but I pretty much just covered a live Barry Manilow arrangement. I agree, though, very cool take on this old standard.
 
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