TS or TRS?

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EDAN

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Ok, I recall someome already going over this but can't find the thread. My 388 had 1/4 ins and outs on each channel for patching effects ect. My M-308 only has one 1/4 jack. Now, do I need TS or TSR cables to patch effects this way? I need the "Y" type cables, correct?

Thanks,

EDAN
 
Edan, you are correct.
The 388 has two ACCESS jacks per channel, which were 1/4 TS type plugs.
One in, one out

The 308 has a single "INSERT" jack, which is a TRS ( stereo 1/4 plug). You need an INSERT cable, which breaks the TRS down into two plugs..one TR and one TS.

DO NOT plug a TS ( mono) 1/4" plug into the insert jacks on your 308!

I have insert snakes on my 308 run to a patch bay set up (normalled) to allow performing the "insert" at the patcbay, rather than digging around behind the desk each time I want to add something in.
 
You're going to have to start charging me!

Thanks, teach!
 
OOPS, correction

The insert cable breaks into TS and RS....NOT TS and TR

But it knows that....... :D
 
In that case, I have a similar question for you:

Are the direct-outs on the M-308 mixer TRS or TS?

And, would you happen to know if the XLR jacks on the M-308 are balanced, or pseudo-balanced?

thanks!

-callie- :D
 
The direct outs on a 308 are unbalanced. And Im not sure what a psuedo balanced is.
 
A balanced connection carries the signal on the tip AND the ring (and the ground on the shield). But, it puts the two signals out-of phase along the cable. Once they reach the destination amp, the two signals are flipped back into phase. That way, any noise that was picked up by the cable along the way is put out-of-phase, and cancels itself out, and the wanted signal is put back into phase, and cleanly.....there.

From what I have read, and understood, a pseudo-balanced connection does not put the tip and the ring connections out of phase of each other once it leaves its origin. It basically functions as an unbalanced connection, and the signal is split directly to the tip and ring (so it can be said that the tip and ring are shorted.) they're one and the same. The tip and ring are NOT put out of phase of each other, because they're the exact same signal.

Somehow or another, this configuration is still better than a regular unbalanced TS connection. Not sure how. It somehow still cancels out extra noise, though not as well as a balanced connection, because of the lack of a phase-flip going on. Not sure, that's where my knowledge is fuzzy.

I also understand that a pseudo-balanced output, when sent to a balanced input, will result in a 6dB drop from the original signal, because the two signals are flipped in phase, which somehow or another doesn't cancel the signal out completeley, just 6dB of it (????) Not sure......that's what I seem to pick up from what I've read. Still looking for a good hardcopy book or something to explain it better.

A lot of Pro-sumer gear, and even some pro gear, has pseudo-balanced connections, for whatever reason. (It's much cheaper to have pseudo-balanced circuits than balanced circuits, i suppose.) In the Firestation, we have a QMA DDR console -- VERY nice board, but the direct-outs are pseudo-balanced for some odd reason. This just gives a 6dB drop in signal when routing from a direct out to another channel on the board.

So I assume that no phantom power should be sent through a pseudo-balanced connection, because of the Tip and ring being shorted (?) And, i'm just trying to figure out exactly what I'm dealing with, with my M-308, and OTari MX-5050, in terms of connections and whatnot.

-callie-
 
Muckelroy said:
From what I have read, and understood, a pseudo-balanced connection does not put the tip and the ring connections out of phase of each other once it leaves its origin. It basically functions as an unbalanced connection, and the signal is split directly to the tip and ring (so it can be said that the tip and ring are shorted.) they're one and the same. The tip and ring are NOT put out of phase of each other, because they're the exact same signal.
Click to expand...
As far as I can tell, pseudo balanced is basically feeding an unbalanced signal into a balanced input through a balanced cable - i.e. from a TS to TRS connector connecting send T - receive T, send S - receive R and the shield to receive S only.

This illustration is lifted out of an Aphex manual:
 

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The direct outs on the 308 are TS. I would assume these are unbalanced.

From what I understand, the "balanced" outs require three wires..the third wire ( ground shield) is just that...grounded, to capture and negate external signals to a large extent.
I always thought (incorrectly??) that the XLR connections were balanced, and the 1/4" connections were unbalanced, as they are two wire. I've never seen a mic with a 1/4" TRS plug (balanced).

And, for the most part in an HR studio where the distances are very short, does it make a real difference??
 
technoplayer said:
The direct outs on the 308 are TS. I would assume these are unbalanced.

From what I understand, the "balanced" outs require three wires..the third wire ( ground shield) is just that...grounded, to capture and negate external signals to a large extent.
I always thought (incorrectly??) that the XLR connections were balanced, and the 1/4" connections were unbalanced, as they are two wire. I've never seen a mic with a 1/4" TRS plug (balanced).

And, for the most part in an HR studio where the distances are very short, does it make a real difference??
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know for sure if balanced vs. unbalanced would make a REAL difference in a HR environment. The thing is, for a patch-bay setup, that will essentially double the length of cabling per channel needed. (To AND from patch bay, etc.) So, it'd make sense to stay balanced as much as possible within your signal chains, at least for the Pre-tape side, if at all possible. (because there's NOTHING more annoying than cell-phone interference showing up on a good take.)

From what I gather, a pseudo-balanced circuit is unbalanced, so that circuit whithin itself is open for picking up residual noise, even if it's within a mixing console. That's the issue at hand. Whether it REALLY matters, um, maybe not.

And yes, 1/4" connectors can be either balanced or unbalanced. TS jacks have two connectors (unbalanced), and TRS jacks have three contacts on them (tip-ring-sleeve.). TRS jacks are common w/ stereo unbalanced headphone jacks, and in balanced mono signals, on patch bays, on boards, etc.

OK i'll shut up. just wanted to kinda clarify that.

Thanks for the diagram, Arjoll. Pretty helpful.
 
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