Trying to mix my band's first EP.

[BradynWestbrook]

Let me first say this is my first time recording a full band, and I'm having trouble getting everything the way I want it to be. Although I understand I won't get it perfect, as this was live-recorded in a bedroom with really cheap equipment. I have mixed acoustic and vocals before, but this has me scratching my head and I have quite a few questions.

First, the RMS in my tracks is very quiet, and I know compression is the answer to that, but it seems like messing with the settings isn't making it very much louder. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

Second, I know I shouldn't be too concerned with loudness, but these tracks have about 10 db or so of DR. The track I'm having the most problems with is the bass, I knew I would run into trouble with this, but I've tried everything I can think of, I've cut the extreme lows out of the bass to give the kick room, boosted around 80 hz on the kick and it's just not enough. I have to make extreme changes to get the sound I'm wanting. Maybe I'm expecting too much seeing as I'm mixing on a pair of AKG headphones. (I know, less than ideal, but I'm using my decent speakers to check the mixes as well)

Third, for you Reaper users, is there a clip gain tool in Reaper? Similar to PT? That way I could do manual compression sort of, since I don't think I completely understand using an actual compressor.


I can post examples of these mixes if necessary, I just don't want anybody laughing at my mediocrity.

P.S. I know everyone reading this is probably thinking, "Oh god it's another noob who thinks he know what he's doing." Please bear with me haha.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Let me first say this is my first time recording a full band, and I'm having trouble getting everything the way I want it to be. Although I understand I won't get it perfect, as this was live-recorded in a bedroom with really cheap equipment. I have mixed acoustic and vocals before, but this has me scratching my head and I have quite a few questions.

First, the RMS in my tracks is very quiet, and I know compression is the answer to that, but it seems like messing with the settings isn't making it very much louder. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

Second, I know I shouldn't be too concerned with loudness, but these tracks have about 10 db or so of DR. The track I'm having the most problems with is the bass, I knew I would run into trouble with this, but I've tried everything I can think of, I've cut the extreme lows out of the bass to give the kick room, boosted around 80 hz on the kick and it's just not enough. I have to make extreme changes to get the sound I'm wanting. Maybe I'm expecting too much seeing as I'm mixing on a pair of AKG headphones. (I know, less than ideal, but I'm using my decent speakers to check the mixes as well)

Third, for you Reaper users, is there a clip gain tool in Reaper? Similar to PT? That way I could do manual compression sort of, since I don't think I completely understand using an actual compressor.


I can post examples of these mixes if necessary, I just don't want anybody laughing at my mediocrity.

P.S. I know everyone reading this is probably thinking, "Oh god it's another noob who thinks he know what he's doing." Please bear with me haha.

Actually, I was thinking "cool! a guy that needs help that isn't looking for hits on his site"!

Yeah man, post up samples of what you have so far. You will be surprised how much you can learn from members here. It is the ass-wipes that think their s**t don't stink, that get slammed.

I'm going to move this to the MP3 Mixing Clinic. You will get the best comments there.

Welcome BW!

Looking forward to hearing what you have recorded.

 

[Paschalis I.]

First, the RMS in my tracks is very quiet, and I know compression is the answer to that, but it seems like messing with the settings isn't making it very much louder. Is there something I'm doing wrong?

I can post examples of these mixes if necessary, I just don't want anybody laughing at my mediocrity.

P.S. I know everyone reading this is probably thinking, "Oh god it's another noob who thinks he know what he's doing." Please bear with me haha.

Well you are a newbie that at least tried to do something and not get spoonfed, so no worries about that.
Please post samples!

Aw and compression has nothing to do with Loudness. Yes it may reduce the volume but still you've got a Make-Up Volume knob to get back the sound you've lost compressing.

The only way to get a proper volume to your tracks is to get it while recording.
But as you said since you have the recorded files, and if you can't go back, use a loudness maximizer like the L2 from waves or a free one.

It's not the most "correct" solution but it will give you the volume you didn't get while recording.
Beware though you ll experience lots of hidden noise when you use a maximizer so use a De-Noiser or a Gate before the maximizer.

Waiting for the samples!

 

[RAMI]

Well you are a newbie that at least tried to do something and not get spoonfed, so no worries about that.
Please post samples!

Aw and compression has nothing to do with Loudness. Yes it may reduce the volume but still you've got a Make-Up Volume knob to get back the sound you've lost compressing.

The only way to get a proper volume to your tracks is to get it while recording.
But as you said since you have the recorded files, and if you can't go back, use a loudness maximizer like the L2 from waves or a free one.

It's not the most "correct" solution but it will give you the volume you didn't get while recording.
Beware though you ll experience lots of hidden noise when you use a maximizer so use a De-Noiser or a Gate before the maximizer.

Waiting for the samples!

Sorry man, but that's 100% incorrect. You don't get volume "while recording". It's quite the opposite. You shouldn't worry about volume at all while recording. In fact, while recording, you should be peaking WAAAAYYYYY below 0db. If you want your final mix to come up in volume, you do that in the mastering stage. YOu don't even get your volume in the mixing stage. Before mastering, it's quite normal to need to turn up your monitors quite a bit. Compressor and/or limiter is what you use to bring your final mix up to "commercial" levels, but you certainly don't get your volume while recording or mixing. It happens after you have your final mix and you go into the mastering stage.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

But as you said since you have the recorded files, and if you can't go back, use a loudness maximizer like the L2 from waves or a free one.

There's no need for the OP to invoke a fancy limiter when he just needs gain.

Bradyn, double click on the audio block (called an "item" in Reaper) and click the Normalize button. Then hover your mouse over the top edge of the item where the pointer turns into an up-down arrow and pull down the Item Volume, while playing it soloed with no inserts and the volume fader at 0dB, until the average level is around -18dBFS on the main meter.

 

[Paschalis I.]

Sorry man, but that's 100% incorrect. You don't get volume "while recording". It's quite the opposite. You shouldn't worry about volume at all while recording. In fact, while recording, you should be peaking WAAAAYYYYY below 0db. If you want your final mix to come up in volume, you do that in the mastering stage.

Sorry but you are wrong here.

You get the volume from the preamp that you connect the mic.
If you peak WAAAAYYYYY below 0db, you will still need to give some loudness back.

No matter if you choose to give this loudness to an individual track or to the whole mix (Master Bus as you mentioned),
if you are wayyyyy below 0db then you'll bring up lots of noise too.

There are de-noisers and gates for that, but nothing beats proper gain staging.

 

[RAMI]

Sorry but you are wrong here.

You get the volume from the preamp that you connect the mic.
If you peak WAAAAYYYYY below 0db, you will still need to give some loudness back.

No matter if you choose to give this loudness to an individual track or to the whole mix (Master Bus as you mentioned),
if you are wayyyyy below 0db then you'll bring up lots of noise too.

You just proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. Not one thing you just said is even near being correct.

Your tracking levels have nothing to do with your mixing levels. You should be tracking WAAAAYYYY below 0db in 24 bit digital. You are 100% wrong here, and this is basic recording knowledge. There's no reason to be tracking hot at all. Too bad you don't know something so basic. Maybe you should brush up on your theory before you go around giving "tutorials", because the fact that you don't know this means you're in no position to try to teach anyone anything.

nothing beats proper gain staging.

You just proved you know nothing about proper gain staging, so maybe you should stop typing while you still have any credibility at all, which you barely do.


Are you saying that one should be tracking as close to 0db as they can?

 

[Paschalis I.]

Sorry man, but that's 100% incorrect. You don't get volume "while recording". It's quite the opposite. You shouldn't worry about volume at all while recording.

Your tracking levels have nothing to do with your mixing levels. There's no reason to be tracking hot at all.
Are you saying that one should be tracking as close to 0db as they can?

It's actually pretty sad that "someone" neg repped me cause has the power to do so,
just because someone disagrees with him.

And it's also sad that you are trying to put words into my mouth...

No I never said to track as close as 0db.
It's wise to track with the peaks hitting -3db maximum, so when you use a loudness maximizer during mastering you won't have to deal with the noise floor.

That's all I said. I don't know how you managed to create all these theories.

And no you don't get volume while recording, I never talked about the final volume of the song either, and yes it's the mastering engineer's job.
The mixing engineer should just bring up the volume using its speakers.

Before insulting me and using your powers over someone that disagrees with you (or adds his 2 cents)
try to comprehend what he is saying first.

Peace.

 

[JG96]

Paschalis: I see your concern about the noise floor and though it may be valid in the analog realm with 24 bit digital recording it is far from an issue. If you are getting noise its most likely from your source, mic, or cable. Also if all of your tracks are peaking at roughly 3 DB you will be clipping the master bus extremely quickly. I don't think anyone here has anything against you personally. Its just that when people spread inaccurate around this forum it must be corrected so others are not mislead.

BradynWestbrook: Post up your song man that will help us give you good advice. A few tricks I have heard are cutting the bass where you boost the kick. Since you said you boosted the kick at 80 cut the bass there and maybe give it a boost around 120? You can also duck the bass with the kick. Check out this article: 2 Simple Tricks to Fit the Kick and Bass Together
Try boosting the high mids on the kick too around 2-5 kHz that will give you some more sound of the beater.

 

[Mr Clean]

It's wise to track with the peaks hitting -3db maximum.

Not in the digital realm at 24bit. -18 to -10db is the ideal aim per track.

 

[RAMI]

It's actually pretty sad that "someone" neg repped me cause has the power to do so,
just because someone disagrees with him.

I didn't neg rep you for this thread. I negged you for another thread that showed you should be doing less typing and more reading.

No I never said to track as close as 0db.

I never claimed you said that. I asked you if that's what you think. Notice the question mark.

It's wise to track with the peaks hitting -3db maximum, so when you use a loudness maximizer during mastering you won't have to deal with the noise floor.

You once again show that you have no idea what you're talking about. Proper tracking levels in 24 bit digital allows you to track as low as -18. Not that tracking higher than that would hurt. But to say "it's wise to track with peaks hitting -3db" is false. Noise floor has nothing to do with it. You have about 50db of head room in 24 bit digital recording. The noise floor is not even an issue. This isn't tape.

That's all I said. I don't know how you managed to create all these theories.

I didn't create anything. These "theories" existed long before either of us started recording. Tracking levels in 24 bit digital are far different than tracking levels to tape.

And no you don't get volume while recording

Um......make up your mind.....you said this:

The only way to get a proper volume to your tracks is to get it while recording.

....which is a completely ridiculous statement.

We've had way too many people come in here lately trying to educate people with bad/wrong/false/ridiculous information. You just happen to be the latest.

From Turtle Michael to Mark to Dr. Techno to this guy. One gets banned and the next one steps in to take over. It's like tag team stupidity.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Aw and compression has nothing to do with Loudness. Yes it may reduce the volume but still you've got a Make-Up Volume knob to get back the sound you've lost compressing.

Perceived volume has a lot to do with the instrumental arrangement and frequency content of the recorded instruments, but compression is certainly related to loudness.

Dynamic range compression reduces the peaks which decreases dynamic range and, with make up gain, increases the overall perceived volume without increasing the peak level.

Tracking louder is not good advice. Other than in relation to noise floor, it's no different to just saying "turn up the faders".

use a loudness maximizer like the L2 from waves or a free one.

Waves L2 is a limiter, which is a type of compressor.
The fact that you called it a loudness maximizer kinda makes the point.

 

[JimmyS1969]

Um, something that should be made clear here:
We are all attemping to record near 0dB. There may be confusion over the fact that 0dB equates to-18dBFS.The scale shown in DAW.

 

[RAMI]

Um, something that should be made clear here:
We are all attemping to record near 0dB. There may be confusion over the fact that 0dB equates to-18dBFS.The scale shown in DAW.

I realize that, and I should have used dbfs rather than just 0db. But I'd bet my house that he meant 0dbfs, in other words close to clipping, what with his ridiculous talk of "noise floor" and other nonsense.

Anyway, you know what....I'm done with correcting bad advice. I know I'm far from knowing everything, but I think it's important to point out when someone is presenting bad advice as good advice. It only hurts newbies who take everything they read to heart.

Having said that, it's been happening too often lately, and even though I'm doing the right thing, I feel as if I'm looked at as a bully, which is not my intention. So from now on, let the bullshit flow, I'm done correcting it.

Funny thing is, every time this happens, at first I see all the regulars either stay away or drown in their own diplomacy. Eventually, and this happens every single time, everyone ends up agreeing with me. No more, I refuse to be everybody's monkey.

 

[Paschalis I.]

I will type my last reply on this thread cause I am not here to fight.
Replying to quotes will only lead to more misunderstanding so I'll tell you right away what I meant on my first post.

1. My whole point was to tell the OP to record without clipping and the -3db example about the noise floor was accurate for a simple reason.
I know that you can record as low as -18db, I know that noise is not an issue in the digital world.

But don't you think that everybody have expensive gear like some of the members here. Yeah noise is not an issue in the digital world FOR YOU rami, me and many others
that own expensive gear, cables and pedals like the Decimator.

When someone owns a home studio and uses a crappy guitar, with crappy cables and a sh1tload of VSTs, especially for distorted guitars, the noise is ridiculously increased.
For this I just wanted to tell the OP to better have the option to be louder than -18db, why? Let me explain.

I've seen many home studio owners following the -18 advice (which is correct and I never said the opposite thing) but then during mastering
they couldnt handle the noise cause the Maximizer added lots of gain to compensate with the commercial volume.

Their crappy gear (no offence) and the little amount of noise of each track created a large amount of noise to the master fader,
and if they didn't have to push the Gain of the maximizer so much they would have might gotten away with it.

About the maximizer thing, again, I saw many people tracking way too low or even below -18, sometimes they needed to give some volume
pushed the fader to limits and still needed more volume. Instead of bringing the other faders down they wanted something else to give volume thus
I gave the L2 example.
I said from the start that it's not the correct way to give volume, and if you find yourself recording SO LOW that you think than you need to give volume to the track
even if you push the fader to the max, then it's definitely ultra low so just give more some volume to the gain of your sound card.
That's what I meant with the "The only way to get a proper volume to your tracks is to get it while recording.", I guess I expressed what I meant the wrong way cause I was sleepy and English is not my main language, and I could happily accept my fault (as I do now) if there was a better approach to me from the "higher" member.

2. Waves L2 is a limiter which is a type of compressor yes but it's also a level maximizer.

3. The only person that actually got what I meant and was kind to communicate was JG96 which also told me in a proper way "what you say is right but you don't have to reach -3sb in the digital world" plus he mentioned the only 1 fact that could create noise even in the digital world, crappy gear. And yeah that was exactly my point from the start.


As you can see RAMI I have no prob to accept my faults. It's different when I am typing an article I can use google and check out if i make sense
before publishing it (love english but if it's not your primary language sometimes you mean something else and say something else).
I should have done the same before posting too so sorry about that. But I hated the way you chose to correct me, really "I know more than you" way.

And I don't care for the neg rep you said that you gave me, neither for the insults it's fine by me.
But please don't tell me that I am diplomat though. If you can't distinguish kindness from diplomacy, well it's not my problem.

And as I said, don't be so hasty taking hard action against others. Many people will be afraid to speak, and I guess that's the reason that the 20% of the members here
have the 80% of the total posts. Viewers are afraid to express their opinion cause a "pro" would smash them.

I'm not going to reply again to this thread I have nothing else to prove.

I never said the opposite from anyone.

I just added a tiny tip cause many newbies record the wrong way then for some reason
and then try to give volume by pushing the faders and clip the signal, and while ITS NOT A CORRECT WAY to use a level maximizer for it,
well if thats what they ask for I gave them a solution. But wanted to say that the best solution is to take care of the signal while tracking
so they dont have to do something stupid like adding a volume maximizer to a single track. but i expressed it the wrong way, thats all.

take care

 

[RAMI]

I just skimmed through that. Fair enough, I can see that you clarified some of your points. Some of what you're saying is still wrong, but I'm not going to dwell on it.

When I was talking about people being diplomatic, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about other members. Problem is, we've had a rash of people giving completely wrong information lately and unfortunately, you caught the brunt of a lot of it. So, if I came off too aggressive, I apologize. But like I said, we've had at least 3 people in the last 2 weeks get banned for exactly what I thought you were doing.

The neg rep I gave you was from the mastering thread where you told someone to use OZONE, and even Massive Master, who is one of the most knowledgeable and respected members here, told you that you were wrong to do that.

I'll still insist that your whole theory of getting volume "while you record" is 100% wrong, but I don't think either of us needs to repeat anything at this point. We both have our opinions and at least if a total newbie comes in here and reads your post, they'll also read mine countering most of what you said, and then they can go do research and find out if one of us or both of us is full of crap.

When I'm able to, I'll give you positive rep only because you might not have deserved the neg rep. I could have made my point without doing that.

Rock on

 

[Paschalis I.]

I just skimmed through that. Fair enough, I can see that you clarified some of your points. Some of what you're saying is still wrong, but I'm not going to dwell on it.

When I was talking about people being diplomatic, I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about other members. Problem is, we've had a rash of people giving completely wrong information lately and unfortunately, you caught the brunt of a lot of it. So, if I came off too aggressive, I apologize. But like I said, we've had at least 3 people in the last 2 weeks get banned for exactly what I thought you were doing.

The neg rep I gave you was from the mastering thread where you told someone to use OZONE, and even Massive Master, who is one of the most knowledgeable and respected members here, told you that you were wrong to do that.

I'll still insist that your whole theory of getting volume "while you record" is 100% wrong, but I don't think either of us needs to repeat anything at this point. We both have our opinions and at least if a total newbie comes in here and reads your post, they'll also read mine countering most of what you said, and then they can go do research and find out if one of us or both of us is full of crap.

When I'm able to, I'll give you positive rep only because you might not have deserved the neg rep. I could have made my point without doing that.

Rock on

Well thanks for understanding Rami.

Aw you mean about this reply?
https://homerecording.com/bbs/general-discussions/mastering/vst-mastering-tools-361240/#post4094933

No it wasn't towards Massive Master, the quote was about agreeing with him,
the rest was for the OP (aw man why I do things that make others misunderstand me :/)

Thanks for the future rep but as I said no worries i am fine with that

And about the others... what can I say, I guess I registered at the wrong time hehe.
Rock on

 

[BradynWestbrook]

I know it's been a while since my first post. Here is a rough mix that I'm pretty close to being done with. I'm reaching out to you guys with nice monitors and a good listening environment on this one. I have listened to this on as many systems as possible and I've tried to get the best results on all of them. But I'm still not sure if the low end is where it needs to be. Thanks for your help, and sorry to be reviving a dead thread, I've just struggled to find time to work on this. Also, does the vocal seem to sit on top of the mix enough? I had it to a level I thought was good, but my bass player said it was too much, so I dialed it back a little.

 

[Chili]

No problem bringing this thread back. It's your thread and the right place to post the song in question.

So speaking of which, I think the song is great.

Bottom end seems pretty good to me. It could stand for some small tweaking, but you're close with it.

Are you playing an acoustic or electric guitar? Sometimes it sounds like acoustic and other times it sounds like an electric.

Vocals are indeed sitting on top of the mix. Though the singer has a great voice, the vocal track is not connecting with the rest of the song. It may not be a level adjustment, but I think because the guitar(s) is(are) straight up the middle, you aren't leaving a hole for the vocals in the stereo field. Hmm, put the acoustic to one side and the electric to the other then adjust the level of the vox to fit in the song.

Very John Mayer-esque. I guess that's what you were going for.

 

[BradynWestbrook]

Thanks man! In what way would you suggest tweaking in the low end? And There's only one electric guitar track. We wanted to record live so I was limited to how many mics I could use. If you think it would help the vocal stand out, should I duplicate that track and pan it left and right? I'm not sure if that would give me the same affect.