Troubleshooting M-224 Headphones

DuddyGuy

No good fer nothin!
Hey I came into a M-224 mixer a few weeks ago (traded an mxl-990 for it:D), all of the board seems to work a-ok. With the exception of the headphone jack, which outputs nothing. I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on where to begin the troubleshoot?

I've opened the bottom panel and visually inspected the headphone card, and it appears to be in good shape. Beyond this I'm not too sure where to start. I have a basic multimeter and am familiar with how to check most standard types of components. If anyone familar with the M-2xx boards has a lead for me or any ideas it would be much appreciated.

Thanks as always:)
 
Odds are, the previous owner blew the chip that powers the headphones and will need to be replaced.

That mixer offered a 1.5 WPC headphone amp which TASCAM advertised as being powerful enough to drive a small pair of speakers. No doubt someone over taxed it at some point.

Cheers! :)
 
Odds are, the previous owner blew the chip that powers the headphones and will need to be replaced.

That mixer offered a 1.5 WPC headphone amp which TASCAM advertised as being powerful enough to drive a small pair of speakers. No doubt someone over taxed it at some point.

Cheers! :)

Is the headphone amp located on the same card as the headphone jack? I see no IC located on that card... there are 2 Transformers (unless these are vertically mounted ICs), 6 Electrolytic Caps, 2 Ceramic Caps, A 4 pin wire connector, and 2 points where 2 wires are soldered into the card.

The caps all test good, Connections on the 4 pin connector all seem okay, as well as the wires soldered in. I'm not quite sure on how to test a transformer.
 
Allright as it turned out what I had assumed to be transformers were vertically mounted ICs...

Here is the schematic,

Phones.png


parts list,

Parts.png


and part of the data sheet for the IC power amp.

IC.png


Data2.png


I'm not too sure how to go about testing the IC. Caps, diodes, resistors, etc I know.

My assumption is that I will first have to verify that power is reaching the IC through + and - vcc (how do I do this? just attach the - probe to the same ground as the board, and and test at the closest range to 18v.. ac? and this is testing in-circuit, this is dangerous correct? Is - a ground, do I need to only test the positive vcc?)

And if power is being passed into the IC the next step is output... tested the same as the input?

Thanks again.
 
Did you remove one leg of the caps when you tested them? Can't test those in circuit...and did you test with an ESR meter?

And hey lets just forget all that because Mr. Ghost suggested a blown IC.

Can you put up the actual schematic? What you linked that you named as the schematic is actually what is called the PCB layout.
 
Hey thanks for the reply Beats, heres the actual schematic (sorry about that I missed this one)

Phoneschem.png


Caps cant be tested in circuit? I wasn't aware of this... my method for testing was to discharge all the caps on the board set my standard multimeter to its highest ohm setting and then connect the correlating positive and negative leads and pins. then take a reading, if the measurement dropped to 0 and then the value increased over time with no further drop, my understanding was that the cap was good.

Thanks again, my road into the realm of electronic circuits is still in it's beginning stages.
 
Caps cant be tested in circuit? I wasn't aware of this... my method for testing was to discharge all the caps on the board set my standard multimeter to its highest ohm setting and then connect the correlating positive and negative leads and pins. then take a reading, if the measurement dropped to 0 and then the value increased over time with no further drop, my understanding was that the cap was good.

Thanks again, my road into the realm of electronic circuits is still in it's beginning stages.

Well, I'm constantly learning. Haven't heard of that test but that really doesn't mean anything. Not sure what all that tests for. Do you know of a reference on the internet for that test? I'm not judging. I'd like to learn more about it because if it is a good basic test and you don't have to pull one of the legs that would be a great timesaver.

You DON'T have to pull one of the legs if you are using an ESR meter which also measures resistance, so maybe the method you used works as a coarse test or something but my understanding is that the only real definitive test for a cap is to use an ESR meter which is a very sensitive meter. In order to test to see if the cap's value has drifted outside of spec, then I know you do have to pull one leg and then set your meter to measure capacitance (if it has that feature) and then in most cases there's no point to measure the ESR (equivalent series resistance) because if the capacitance of the cap has drifted out of spec its probably time to replace it anyway.

ANYway...

Thanks for the schematic.

  1. Input test tone to the mixer and get it routed to the headphone amp.
  2. measure for tone with your meter set to AC volts at pin 1 of U51 and U52.
  3. If tone is present then measure for tone at pin 4 of U51 and U52.
  4. If you didn't even get tone at pin 1 of those amps then just start tracing back in the circuit until you get tone and then we go from there.
  5. If you did get tone at pin 1 but not pin 4 go ahead and set your meter to DC volts and check for voltages at pins 3 and 5 of U51 and U52. Pin 3 will be + or - some amount DC volts and pin 5 will be the opposite polarity but should be a similar value.
 
Cory,

The test I referred to was informed to me through a friend. I was able to find this info on the web, it seems you are right that this is a "course" test. The basic premise is to see if the caps are holding the power distributed through the meter.

From http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/captest.htm

Testing Capacitors with a Multimeter
Some DMMs have modes for capacitor testing. These work fairly well to determine approximate uF rating. However, for most applications, they do not test at anywhere near the normal working voltage or test for leakage. Normally, this type of testing requires disconnecting at least one lead of the suspect capacitor from the circuit to get a reasonably accurate reading - or any reading at all. However, newer models may also do a decent job of testing capacitors in-circuit. Of course, all power must be removed and the capacitors should be discharged. This will generally work as long as the components attached to the capacitor are either semiconductors (which won't conduct with the low test voltage) or passive components with a high enough impedance to not load the tester too much. The reading may not be as accurate in-circuit, but probably won't result in a false negative - calling a capacitor good that is bad. But I don't know which models are better in this regard.

CAUTION: For this and any other testing of large capacitors and/or capacitors in power supply, power amplifier, or similar circuits, make sure the capacitor is fully discharged or else your multimeter may be damaged or destroyed!

However, a VOM or DMM without capacitance ranges can make certain types of tests.

For small caps (like 0.01 uf or less), about all you can really test is for shorts or leakage. (However, on an analog multimeter on the high ohms scale you may see a momentary deflection when you touch the probes to the capacitor or reverse them. A DMM may not provide any indication at all.) Any capacitor that measures a few ohms or less is bad. Most should test infinite even on the highest resistance range.

For electrolytics in the uF range or above, you should be able to see the cap charge when you use a high ohms scale with the proper polarity - the resistance will increase until it goes to (nearly) infinity. If the capacitor is shorted, then it will never charge. If it is open, the resistance will be infinite immediately and won't change. If the polarity of the probes is reversed, it will not charge properly either - determine the polarity of your meter and mark it - they are not all the same. Red is usually **negative** with (analog) VOMs but **positive** with most DMMs, for example. Confirm with a marked diode - a low reading across a good diode (VOM on ohms or DMM on diode test) indicates that the positive lead is on the anode (triangle) and negative lead is on the cathode (bar).

If the resistance never goes very high, the capacitor is leaky.

The best way to really test a capacitor is to substitute a known good one. A VOM or DMM will not test the cap under normal operating conditions or at its full rated voltage. However, it is a quick way of finding major faults.

A simple way of determining the capacitance fairly accurately is to build an oscillator using a 555 timer. Substitute the cap in the circuit and then calculate the C value from the frequency. With a few resistor values, this will work over quite a wide range.

Alternatively, using a DC power supply and series resistor, capacitance can be calculated by measuring the rise time to 63% of the power supply voltage from T=RC or C=T/R.

I am currently busy dealing with a very needy, potential buyer for one of Mackie boards for sale. So I'll have to test the ICs later tonight or tomorrow, as this guy seems to call and need more pics, etc, etc, every two minutes or so. I think he's finally bit and decided he wants it, so maybe I will get a chance tonight. I will report back with results when I get them. Thank you for the the procedure involved in testing... much more logical and informative then the way I was thinking about going through it. :)
 
Ok, So I had a chance to sit down and check out U051 + U052 right now, here are the results:

60 Hz Tone U51 Pin1 0.2 U52 0.2 @ 200V AC
60 Hz Tone U51 Pin4 0 U52 0.2 @ 200V AC
60 Hz Tone U51 Pin3 -0.1 Pin5 0.1 U52 Pin3 -0.1 Pin 5 0.1 @ 2000uA DC

Tone coming into the board riding right on the 0 of the meters, Mon volume at 9/10 max.

My thoughts on these results are... well to say the least confused :confused:.
Please bear with my complete non-understanding of this here :)

The results from pin 1 suggest to me that the test tone is routing correctly off of the main board and into the headphone amps.

Pins 3 and 5 begin the confusion... My belief is that according to the data sheet for the chips is that they require a minimum of 6V to operate, so in order for the chips to function I should have had values of at least -6V and 6V, no? Perhaps I'm not reading the meter right... or this thing is junk. Been on the lookout for a scope but decent ones at acceptable prices seem to come up few and far between.

Then we get on to pin 4, If my belief that neither U051 or U052 is receiving enough power to function then U051 outputting nothing makes sense... so then why is U052 passing signal? Of course if I'm completely off base on that then it would seem U051 is damaged, and U052 is functioning.

But continuing further on that assumption, if U052 IS functioning, I should have signal coming through the headphones on either the left or right side... since as I read it each IC is acting as mono power amp one for the left channel, one for the right. Yet there is nothing there.

Any one able to clarify my confused ramblings.make any sense of this?
 
What make and model meter are you using?

Use 1kHz tone.

The 0.2VAC is about right. The M-200 mixers are -10dBv mixers and -10dBv is about 0.3VAC RMS at 1kHz. Your meter is not likely a true RMS meter and not rated for audio bandwidth so its not going to match up but your VU meters will show 0VU for -10dBv.

I need to see a manual or at least a pic of your meter to understand where you are setting it...you said "2000uA DC" but that doesn't jibe with where your meter should be set.

Where are you putting the black (COM) probe of your meter when testing pins 3 and 5 of U51 and U52?
 
What make and model meter are you using?

I need to see a manual or at least a pic of your meter to understand where you are setting it...you said "2000uA DC" but that doesn't jibe with where your meter should be set.

Where are you putting the black (COM) probe of your meter when testing pins 3 and 5 of U51 and U52?

I'm using an A & D AD-5526, it's a cheapie and there seems to be little to no references available to it online... but looking it over I've realized there was some user error and that I was measuring DC current where I should have been measuring voltage, I will retest using the proper settings on pins 3 and 5. If you still need a pic or part of the manual I can try to do something. And I will double check everything else using a 1KHZ tone.

I have the COM probe connected to the chassis of the board with an alligator clip.
 
Okay.

Recheck and post up what you found.

A better place to clip the COM probe for these tests would be pins 1 or 3 of P052, the red connector on the PCB. That's the 0V reference at that board. May make no difference but that's what I would do.
 
So... With a 1khz Test Tone, Meters @0, COM connected to pin 1 of P052, I get:

Meter Sensitivity @ 20V DC

U051 Pin 3 Fluctuating between 0.00 to -0.02, Pin 5 Fluctuating between 0.14 to 0.18
U052 Pin 3 Fluctuating between 0.00 to -0.02, Pin 5 Fluctuating between 0.14 to 0.18

This is a problem, yes? Values of pin 3 and pin 5 should be similar but reversed I believe.

With the adjustments in COM location and test tone, the values of pin 1 are the same on both chips.

However now on pin 4 I have a zero reading on both chips.

So the pin 4 results indicate we definitely have no output. Great. Pin 1 definitely has input. Awesome. Pin 5 has some amount of voltage flowing too it, whether it is the correct amount or not I'm not able to determine. Now... pin 3, pin 3 should have the inverse amount of voltage as Pin 5. It does not. So... could this possible be a bad capacitor at C060?

Now this may have been done all wrong, but I thought to myself lets test pin 2 on P052, so with COM still on pin 1 of P052, and the meter set at 20 VDC I get a reading of -0.04 (it slowly increased from -0.01 up to -0.04), also it may also have slowly been continuing to increase.

Any insight?
 
Duddy, we're going to backup here...

Can you get to the power supply?

I forgot that I have the complete service manual for the M-200 series so I just had a look and there are a couple rails coming off the PS that only power the headphone amps...so instead of tracing back let's just start at the source since the headphone amp basically has a dedicated power supply.

If you can get to the power supply:

  1. Find terminals 11 and 12...set your meter to AC volts and put your probes on 11 and 12...anything?
  2. Check fuses F003 and F004 and I mean pull them off the fuse PCB and set your meter to continuity and see if they pass current
  3. if the above was all good then set your meter to DC volts and put the COM probe on pin 19 and the + probe on pin 18...anything? Now try the + probe on pin 20 (COM probe still on pin 19)...anything?

The schematics aren't clear what the voltages are for the rails present at pins 18 and 20, and I don't know if there is a way to look at main transformer element in the PSU schematic and then factor in resistors R001 and R002 to determine the current and then the output voltage of the rectifier D002 (which converts the AC voltage coming off the main transformer on pins 11 and 12 to DC voltage produced at pins 18 and 20 with pin 19 serving as the 0V "ground" reference), but I have a hunch that because U51 and U52 on the phone amp PCB are designed around a +/-13VDC power source that those rails that come into the phone amp PCB on pins 4 and 2 off of pins 18 and 20 on the power supply PCB are +/-12VDC...
 
It would be nice if it were only a blown fuse! :)

I didn't realize that the headphone amp in that mixer had that.

The documentation on the 5 pin TO-220 mono amp chip also states that it has thermal protection built in. So presumably, if the headphone amp was overtaxed, either the thermal protection should have kicked in or at least the fuse(s) should have have blown to protect the circuit. The low voltage readings would seem to suggest that.

Sorry for sending you guys off course if that's the case. :o

Cheers! :)
 
Geez I would feel like such an idiot if it was only a fuse! At least I would have learned a bit.... :), the previous owner said he had replaced the fuses with no effect, but at this point in time I should know better then to take someone at their word

Cory, I am not at home yet but I will get at the power supply and perform all tests, and I would like to thank you very much for taking your time and holding my hand through this.
 
No sweat, Duddy...I've had a healthy share of hand-holding through all of my projects and it continues to this day...I'm happy to help and hopefully it get's the issue resolved.

Also, you're not the first and won't be the last person to bypass something that would seem logical to another set of eyes. I can't remember all the times I've done the same kind of thing and I'm thankful for every person that's stopped and said "ummm...didja check the [insert really obvious thing here]?" It happens.

That's part of why I've enjoyed this particular forum community because it seems, in general, there isn't a culture of bashing somebody just because there was some sort of oversight. We're more interested in helping people get the most out of their gear and learn at the same time.
 
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