Treating LOW ceilings? acoustic considerations

[Kapo_Polenton]

Hi guys, I'm currently considering converting part of my basement into a studio. I'm thinking separate control room, one tracking room for instruments, and movable GOBO's where required to capture guitar amps or other stringed instruments. I've been doing a ton of reading and researching and i understand that ceilings can be a real problem for mixing and tracking. I understand some type of cloud will be required and that it should probably be angled somewhat. Is this correct? Do those slat couplers made of wood make a diff in that they allow the room to seem "bigger" or am i better off with just using what i put on the walls, on the ceiling? I already have these acoustic type ceiling tiles that sit on rails.. i can redo all and any of the ceiling in the basement but it won't make it that much higher. I am putting laminate down as part of a reno anyways (look and feel thing) and will probably work with carpets in tracking area. Any suggestions on the design or type of design i should use for the ceiling? I'm finding that the hardest to find info on right now.

Thanks

 

[RAMI]

I'm not sure that carpets is the best way to go for your tracking room. You probably want a reflective floor and absortion on the ceiling. Rigid fibreglass is the best bet., not foam or ceiling tiles, etc....

Also, I would recommend at lest considering not having separate rooms. One big room is usually a better idea for home recording....generally speaking, of course.

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

What RAMI said. Is the ceiling open floor joists? Leaving it unfinished might help to break up reflections but I would at least stuff the bays with regular insulation. Then build one or two (or more depending on size) clouds. Hang 'em level for starters but maybe leave some extra chain length so you can play around with angles later. That and some corner trapping and FRP absorbers and you'll have a good start for not ridiculous money. You can always add to it later and something is always better than nothing.

Throw some pics up if you want to get more specific.


lou

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Give me a few hours and i'll throw some pics up.. if one big room with gobos is the better way to go, i am also open to that as i like open concept. As long as i can get some sort of control area in that will be faithful to the sound (so treated acoustically) i'd be happy. I'll post back in a few hours with pics ! thanks

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Ok here are some pics.. the first one is just down at the bottom of the stairs looking into my basement. There is a 10 x 11 room just to the left ( I don't mind taking that wall down if need be) and then the main white jam room. Very cluttered right now but you get the picture. There is a kitchen in to the right where i also have my washer and dryer. There are bulkheads there as well as there are two big metal support beams. On those I think i would have to hang acoustic panels on an angle to deflect sound but that is just a guess. I also provided a rough sketch of what the basement looks like with water heater under stairs in a closet and then the small kitchen area in the back. Maybe you guys have some advice on an open concept mixing/studio area.. thanks!

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

Put loose batting insulation above the suspended ceiling and build a bunch of traps/absorbers for the corners and walls. Do you know the type and/or acoustic properties of the ceiling tiles that are in there now? Specifically how reflective they are. You may not need to bother with a cloud. I certainly wouldn't start there. Corners first - then side walls. Is the kitchenette going to stay functional? You have to pick a long end for your mix position and then the first walls you treat relate to that.


lou


lou

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Kitchen will stay operational because the washer and dryer are there as well so yeah.. I don't mind building a wall where i need to though.

The ceiling tiles are actually softer insulated kind. The previous owners also stuffed all the exposed areas between the beams with insulation so that ceiling seems pretty dead to me already. If i pull one out, the back side is essentially yellow insulation type material.Was thinking maybe a cloud made of wood slats to act more of a diffuser?

When you refer to "long end" what exactly do you mean? Can you point out where you might suggest any additional walls or room go and where i might put the mixing position?

Thanks

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Kitchen will stay operational because the washer and dryer are there as well so yeah.. I don't mind building a wall where i need to though.

The ceiling tiles are actually softer insulated kind. The previous owners also stuffed all the exposed areas between the beams with insulation so that ceiling seems pretty dead to me already. If i pull one out, the back side is essentially yellow insulation type material as shown in the pic. Between the exposed joists in the basement, the former owners stuffed pink insulation to kill sound.The walls seem like the big offenders down there if you ask me. Was thinking maybe a cloud made of wood slats to act more of a diffuser?

When you refer to "long end" what exactly do you mean? Can you point out where you might suggest any additional walls or room go and where i might put the mixing position?

Thanks

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

The mix position should be on the longer axis so the sound can escape behind you. I would put it at the end where you indicate a wall that can come down. Taking the wall down would be good for the mix position - move it closer to that far wall. It's a pretty decent space. I'd leave the ceiling be for now. Treat the corners and think about workflow. Will you be recording a band live - you'll need gobos for separation. One instrument at a time you can pretty much start now. For rehearsal and jamming you don't need to do much at all. Treat the corners.


lou

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Ok, I might have gotten a little excited, but i edited my diagram below with a proposed plan. Here is my thinking.

1. There is only one window in the basement in the kitchen, would be nice to bring some natural light into place when not recording or using the space.

2. I thought a small storage room at the top would be useful to store drums and cymbals when not tracking drums as everything rings off the snare and cymbals.

3. The shape of the tracking / performance room takes on a circular shape which i think would be good for sound and slapback?

4. Either build a lower wall that is angled like the red lines are or use gobos which can be moved into place or flipped around the other way should i wish to mix with back wall acoustic treatment.

5. Green lines indicate potential sound baffles on wall or in corner of the room to act as bass traps.

6. control room would be at the bottom of diagram.

Thoughts? I essentially really want that natural light to hit the main area. The ceiling for now I could leave or i might even drywall for the look of it but i can live with these tiles for now as i am sure i could paint them.

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

You're starting to cramp up yer space, man. Eliminate walls - don't add them.

Leave yer storage space open. Hide it with a curtain if you want but allow that space to help with sound absorption/diffusion. Put yer mix desk right about where the blue arrow ends so you actually sit when mixing right where the red lines are. (38% of the depth is the "magic" starting point for mix position.) Your back will be toward the main space. (Remember that for every minute of tracking you will spend 10 or more mixing - maybe many more. That's why the acoustic environment needs to be geared primarily for that one spot.)

Again I think your ceiling is fine to start and letting natural light in is good. Don't overthink this. Set up yer mixing position, trap the corners and put absorbers on the First Reflection Points (FRP). Go to Realtraps for good explanations of how to figure those locations. Then play some music with live instruments. Play some commercial album stuff through your mixing monitors - loud and soft - and see what it sounds like. Go from there.


lou

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Thanks lou.. one additional question though. IS there any concern that the tracking area/mixing area is an irregular shape? I mean i've got what starts as a rectangle and morphs into an octagon like shape for the tracking part of my studio, will that cause problems? I suspect it will mixing and hence the need for the gobos to make it more symmetrical when i mix correct?

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

Thanks lou.. one additional question though. IS there any concern that the tracking area/mixing area is an irregular shape? I mean i've got what starts as a rectangle and morphs into an octagon like shape for the tracking part of my studio, will that cause problems? I suspect it will mixing and hence the need for the gobos to make it more symmetrical when i mix correct?

No negative. That's a good thing. The room opening up behind the mix position allows sound waves to run away from you. Issues occur when the space is symmetrical and sound waves cancel and reinforce each other leading to confusion at the mix position. The ideal would be mixing outdoors where the only sound reaching your ears is what's coming from the monitors. Once we move indoors we have to deal with reflected sound - that's where the problem lies. The place where symmetry will be a concern in your space is in front of the mix position - make whatever treatment you put up there symmetrical - and FRP - make the absorbers to your immediate sides the same and in mirror positions.


lou

 

[RAMI]

No negative. That's a good thing. The room opening up behind the mix position allows sound waves to run away from you. Issues occur when the space is symmetrical and sound waves cancel and reinforce each other leading to confusion at the mix position. The ideal would be mixing outdoors where the only sound reaching your ears is what's coming from the monitors. Once we move indoors we have to deal with reflected sound - that's where the problem lies. The place where symmetry will be a concern in your space is in front of the mix position - make whatever treatment you put up there symmetrical - and FRP - make the absorbers to your immediate sides the same and in mirror positions.


lou

I'm not sure about that, Lou. I agree that you don't want a square room and even less, a cube.

But I think you want symmetry as far as the mixing position goes. I'm far from being an expert on this, so hopefully some of the more knowledgeable people will clear it up.

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

I'm not sure about that, Lou. I agree that you don't want a square room and even less, a cube.

But I think you want symmetry as far as the mixing position goes. I'm far from being an expert on this, so hopefully some of the more knowledgeable people will clear it up.

I'm no expert either but I did say symmetry for front and FRP is good. I think behind the mix position is less critical and a non-symmetrical space is beneficial - less likelihood of peaks and nulls rolling forward.

I probably don't explain it all that well either.


lou

 

[RAMI]

I'm no expert either but I did say symmetry for front and FRP is good. I think behind the mix position is less critical and a non-symmetrical space is beneficial - less liklihood of peaks and nulls rolling forward.

I probably don't explain it all that well either.


lou

No, you probably explained it fine. I have a comprehension problem. What you said makes sense after all.

 

[Sky Blue Lou]

What you said makes sense after all.

No shit, really? Yay!! That don't happen often.


lou

 

[RAMI]

No shit, really? Yay!! That don't happen often.


lou

Well, keep in mind that I'm the one telling you that. I wouldn't get too excited.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

Ok that makes sense to me. That is the benefit of sitting where i would because in front of me, i have a symmetrical room (so a square).. with proper treatment in front, and on first reflection points and insulation and those acoustic ceiling tiles above me, I am monitoring from a symmetrical vantage point but the sound escapes into room behind me and disperses thus not bouncing back immediately into my ears and confusing my mighty brain!

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

I know you guys will be sick of this crappy diagram but i think this may be the one for me. Incorporating what you have said about symmetry and the open room and i found a way to minimize doors and still have some storage up top because i want to be able to section off that kitchen anyway. Red marks are suggested placement of traps.Mixing desk is roughly where that ugly brown desk looking thing is.