Tracking heavy distortion...

  • Thread starter Thread starter sicrecords
  • Start date Start date
Han said:
Then please tell me what do you use. Which convertors? PT? Radar? What's your front end?

I ask this because I still have better results with two inch and as soon as any DAW gives a better sound, I will be very happy guy.

Not to start another stupid A/D debate, but I've just read an interview with Elliot Scheiner and Steely Dan and that's confusing.
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converters / routing / summing by Stagetec (Nexus), with dynamic range: A/D - 126dB(A)@22dBu; D/A(line level) dyn. range 131dB(A); D/A (microphone level) dyn. range 154dB (!!).

DAW - Pro Tools HD with digi 192 digital I/O's.

Main front end gear; Steve Firlotte designed all tube "mini console" which is used for tracking as well as mastering, featuring four pre's, four D.I's, two Pultec type EQ's, two optical compressor / limiters. This in addition to the Nexus pre / converter combo's (also available but hardly ever used anymore, Groove Tube Vipre's, Precisson 8, Grace 801).

All cabling, digital and analogue, by Zaolla, additional routing by Z-Systems, Power conditioning by VAR and BEST.

The above could best be described as a hybrid system, as it used the editing / interface of a DAW, but at the same time it circumvents a DAW's shortcomings, such as its summing, and low quality hardware. The key to the whole quality is the Stagetec Nexus system, which includes what are without question the best converters in the world, as well as an unrivalled routing system and extremely accurate metering.
It might be of interest to know that since this system has been in use, I have found the need for processing in a mix to be reduced by over 50%, as you are able to record exactly what you want to hear, whilst the dynamic range is such that it surpasses anything possible with the best analogue gear by a huge margin.
 
sicrecords said:
Equipment:

ampeg vt-220 combo amp front loaded with digitech rp 2000 (absolutely no presets cuz they sound like shit)
2 sm57's 1.5" off the grill (1 for each speaker)
alesis studio 24 (no EQ, just collecting the dual signal and feeding it to mbox channel 1)
digidesign mbox using pro tools 5.3.3
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First thing. Use the one 57 off the edge of the cone(like sjoko2 said) with the amp off the floor (milk crate) for better energy release.

Second thing. Don't use 2 57's, get another mic for your 2nd and again like Sjoko said, use the 321 rule. I suggest a Senn 421 as another mic, record 1 pair of tracks, then move the mics to a different part of the cone..rinse and repeat.

Third thing, take the mic into the M-Box dirsect without the Alesis board, the M-Box has 2 mic inputs..use em both.

The Alesis has pre's that are pretty trebly to begin with so add that to the 57's treble and your already overloading the midrange. If the amp sound good to your ears, good chance is the chain is boggled nad you need to experiment with mic type and location. If the midrange is still harsh, back of the gain and cut the mids on the amp. Compress the snot out of it too, that will help bring up the bottom and level the tops a little.

Using analog like 1" or 2" depending on the machine can give you some compression on the transients, but you have to have the mic, pre and location right in the first place.

SoMm
 
sjoko2 said:
converters / routing / summing by Stagetec (Nexus), with dynamic range: A/D - 126dB(A)@22dBu; D/A(line level) dyn. range 131dB(A); D/A (microphone level) dyn. range 154dB (!!).

DAW - Pro Tools HD with digi 192 digital I/O's.

Main front end gear; Steve Firlotte designed all tube "mini console" which is used for tracking as well as mastering, featuring four pre's, four D.I's, two Pultec type EQ's, two optical compressor / limiters. This in addition to the Nexus pre / converter combo's (also available but hardly ever used anymore, Groove Tube Vipre's, Precisson 8, Grace 801).

All cabling, digital and analogue, by Zaolla, additional routing by Z-Systems, Power conditioning by VAR and BEST.

The above could best be described as a hybrid system, as it used the editing / interface of a DAW, but at the same time it circumvents a DAW's shortcomings, such as its summing, and low quality hardware. The key to the whole quality is the Stagetec Nexus system, which includes what are without question the best converters in the world, as well as an unrivalled routing system and extremely accurate metering.
It might be of interest to know that since this system has been in use, I have found the need for processing in a mix to be reduced by over 50%, as you are able to record exactly what you want to hear, whilst the dynamic range is such that it surpasses anything possible with the best analogue gear by a huge margin.
Click to expand...

Wow!
 
WOW is right. I thought we were in HOME RECORDING. This sounds like shit used in some big name L.A. studio. Way past me.

I'm out of this one.

Peace

boardman
 
WOW is right. I thought we were in HOME RECORDING. This sounds like shit used in some big name L.A. studio. Way past me.
Wasn't this about micing an amp for a guitar sound?
I'm out of this one.

Peace

boardman
 
i'm recording with a band, punk, with that heavy mesa boogie dual rect sound. here's what i've done with results that have really pleased the band, and actually surprised me once we put it all together...
0. got the sound we wanted from the amp
1. get the mic'd speaker off the ground
2. i put an sm58 we had laying around the first day up for kicks...
3. put it off axis (~25 to 45 deg off) and pointing towards the outer edge of the middle round bubble like thing (technical terms)
4. ran straight into the computer, recorded about -12db to -6 (peak) db
5. compress heavily 0 to ~300Hz (depended on key of song)
6. eq with slight (-3 to -6ish db) rolloff from 0 to 350Hz, maybe a slight rolloff of very high freqs
7. repeat with another take
8. pan hard left / right

maybe i got lucky and the recording gods are currently smiling on me, but this pretty much was the way we did it from day 1. on day 40 i'm still doing the same method.

the biggest thing i've learned was that the axis off probably plays the largest role in harshness / warmth of tone.

...my novice 2 cents
 
trdn1- im very interested in hearing your recording because thats some very different stuff you tried on that. What are you monitoring on? What do you mean compress heavily 0-300hz and why does it depend on the pitch of the song? Are you only compressing those frequencies? And how does it work the compress those frequencies when you roll them off at about 350 hz?

What i imagine hearing is a very thin and lifeless guitar tone because there would be no bass and no definition without those lower frequencies.

All in all if this technique works, i gotta try it because it would be nice to get those frequencies out of the way for other things.

sjoko - sounds kinda like my studio ;). MOTU 2408mk3 converters with Mackie 1604 VLZ and VTB1 pres. I say we ditch these loser at the homerecording.com and start our own www.prorecording.com BBS website.

Danny
 
darnold,
when you compress a sound, you bring the quieter bits up and the louder bits down. in a rock/punk/metal/etc recording, this allows for keeping a loud passage consistently at pretty much whatever level you want. you don't necessarily end up with a quieter bit overall (though heavily compressing entire songs will take the oompf out of the transitions in signal level, making quiet passages potentially just as loud as louder passages and really defeating the purpose of having dynamics in a tune). it sounds to me as though what trd1 is doing is just trying to keep the chunkier bits of a riif more controllable. makes sense to me.
 
57

Can't say I "hate" the 57, but I CAN say I've had better results with e609s.
Much less picky about placement, and in my case the mids sound more......accurate? I still do use both though.

If I could afford to, I'd have the MD421.


Then again, my stuff is crappy, and I'm a perpetual n00b... so take it FWIW.
 
getting back to the dual mic thing.

when dual micing a cab a verry small change in distance between the mics will make a huge differance in the combined sound of the two mics.

big phaze problems possible.

now you have to choose mic placement for two mics, and remember that each sound (optimaitically) should be useable and the combination should (again optimistically) be better than the sum of its parts.

one mic at a time is easier
 
Umm. If you check the date, i posted that post like a year and a half ago. Why is this thread still up?
 
Getting back on that. hes saying roll off between 0-350Hz.

Maybe roll off between 0-70Hz. Cutting off even up to 150Hz will give a pretty thin sound.

I think compressing those frequencies are a bad idea anyway. maybe a little bit to keep it tame, but those are the frequencies that need the dynamics to make it chug and keep its power.

Danny
 
darnold said:
but those are the frequencies that need the dynamics to make it chug and keep its power.

Danny
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All though chug might come from guitars, power does not. It is a combination between kick, bass, and guitar. It is amazing how thin a guitar sounds soloed on most heavy records. Find an album that has a soloed chugging guitar (think Lamb of God, Napalm Death), and listen to it as biased as you can. Shoot cut the guitar out of the song and loop it over and over. This way you will not be effected by the lead in and out of the rest of the music. Once you really listen to it you will realize that there really is not that much "power" coming from it. Most people make the mistake of recording guitars so they sound like guitar and bass (i.e. power). It is kind of hard to explain, but you need to record just pure guitar. No hype in the bass at all.
 
sicrecords said:
The distortion sounds great, really thick and crunchy, to my ear when standing above my speaker cab as I play.
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You might wanna try a flat condenser where you're head is, just for the heck of it.
 
chadsxe - i disagree. They might not be the main power of the mix, but they have power in themselves.

I think its a big misconception how people think because its not a bass instrument the bass frequencies arnt important.

Every instrument is based on harmonics. The bass frequencies might not be the main defining definitions in the guitar sound and they still might be even subtle in alot of cases. But they are there and contribute to the sound greatly.

I think its those frequencies that help the guitar intereact better with the bass instrument itself.


And i didnt mean to say that those lower frequencies should be louder and are more important than the higher frequencies, but the power (in the guitar itself) is in those frequencies. I think they should be the dynamic parts of the instrument where as the mids and highs are dirty and squashed to hell.

Infact exactly what your saying is my opinion why so many people struggle on getting the "big" phat heavy metal distortion gtr sound that these people looking for.

Why do you think the gtr and amp have such a huge play in this style of music? If hes using the right equipment, that guitar and amp was built with those lower frequency harmonics and certain timbres. Why the hell would you wonna suck them all out?

Of course if you are using gear that doesnt fit the genre well, then you might have to look for other techniques on getting that sound.

Danny
 
darnold said:
chadsxe - i disagree. They might not be the main power of the mix, but they have power in themselves.

I think its a big misconception how people think because its not a bass instrument the bass frequencies arnt important.

Every instrument is based on harmonics. The bass frequencies might not be the main defining definitions in the guitar sound and they still might be even subtle in alot of cases. But they are there and contribute to the sound greatly.

I think its those frequencies that help the guitar intereact better with the bass instrument itself.


And i didnt mean to say that those lower frequencies should be louder and are more important than the higher frequencies, but the power (in the guitar itself) is in those frequencies. I think they should be the dynamic parts of the instrument where as the mids and highs are dirty and squashed to hell.

Infact exactly what your saying is my opinion why so many people struggle on getting the "big" phat heavy metal distortion gtr sound that these people looking for.

Why do you think the gtr and amp have such a huge play in this style of music? If hes using the right equipment, that guitar and amp was built with those lower frequency harmonics and certain timbres. Why the hell would you wonna suck them all out?

Of course if you are using gear that doesnt fit the genre well, then you might have to look for other techniques on getting that sound.

Danny
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Well I guess it depends on who you ask and how you look at it. Average day Joe is not going to be able to tell you were the over all power is coming from. I understand everything has power in itself, but at the same time people fail to realize were most of the power from the guitar comes from in a mix. To me it is by no means the guitar, but more the bass and kick. Am I saying elminate all bass from the guitar, NO. What I am saying is don't look at the guitar as your main source of power.

I just said power one to many times :)
 
Damn, guys. Where the hell did this thread come from?

It's like paying a visit to the history museum.
 
It was probably mentioned, but here's a quick fix for that:


Apply sometype of broadband EQ (don't worry about phase correction) on your guitar buss.

Apply a high pass filter at around 160hz and a low pass at around 8k. Then simply slide the freq for each until that harshness is under control.


The trebly that you speak of are frequencies in the 6-10k (most accutely) range that are typical, especially with an SM57. This is what we call "sibliance". Common on vocals, but also common on instruments such as guitars.


Things to try in the future: Better EQing of your amp, switch the pick up setting on your guitar, different mic placment. Avoid 2 mic's and just use one (unless your working with a stereo effect of some sort).
 
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