Track volume vs. trim adjustment

[pennylink]

I've been using Sonar 2.2 for a while now, but haven't been able to figure out what the difference is between track "Volume" and "Trim". Both seem to adjust the track's output by 0.1 dB increments...

Can anyone shed some light on this?

 

[Farview]

If you find yourself turning a track in the mix way down, it is preferable to turn down the trim and bring up the fader. You have much more control over the fader when it is up around unity gain.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

The difference between the fader and trim control is not a question of functionality... it's a question of useage. If you have a single audio track with no volume envelope, they both do the exact same thing. If, however, you have a track with a volume envelope drawn over it, the fader responds to all those volume changes in real time.... it's as if you we're sitting there moving the fader up and down manually to create the volume changes you wanted.

Now... let's say you've taken 4 hours to draw a volume envelope on your vocal track, and you've got it just perfect: all the dynamics are just the way you want them. Then you bring up the full mix and suddenly realize that the overall vocal level is too low. Crap!! There's 4 hours wasted! <But Wait!!> Rather than re-draw the entire envelope, you can adjust the overall track volume by adjusting the "trim", thereby keeping all the "fader" movements you made via the volume envelope intact! What a concept!

A

 

[dachay2tnr]

Now... let's say you've taken 4 hours to draw a volume envelope on your vocal track, and you've got it just perfect: all the dynamics are just the way you want them. Then you bring up the full mix and suddenly realize that the overall vocal level is too low. Crap!! There's 4 hours wasted! <But Wait!!> Rather than re-draw the entire envelope, you can adjust the overall track volume by adjusting the "trim", thereby keeping all the "fader" movements you made via the volume envelope intact! What a concept!

A

Or you could just highlight and raise the entire envelope.




Actually I think there is a limitation with this approach. I believe the envelope will be restricted if any part of it ends up at the uppermost or bottommost range. For ex., if any part of the envelope is drawn down to infinity, you will not be able to lower the envelope at all.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Actually I think there is a limitation with this approach. I believe the envelope will be restricted if any part of it ends up at the uppermost or bottommost range. For ex., if any part of the envelope is drawn down to infinity, you will not be able to lower the envelope at all.

Yup.... plus it's much riskier. If you highlight the entire envelope but miss one node, then you end up raising everything but that one. And of course you don't notice it at the time... only an hour later when it's too late to simply Ctrl-Z it!

Much easier to just use the trim.

A

 

[minofifa]

or you could draw a clip envelope and raise the overall volume that way. that may not work if you have a bunch of clips in the same track. well at least that's what i have done a few times.

 

[Qwerty]

I've always thought Aaron's explanation was the correct one. What I find a bit weird though is the behaviour of the trim and volume sliders when using the FX bin.

If I do this -

- Record a dry, DI guitar track
- Stick TRIM and VOLUME on 0dB
- Stick an amp modeller in the FX bin

The resulting sound is different whether I turn down the volume level by 6dB or the trim fader down by 6dB. So, it looks to me like the default track routing goes TRIM slider => FX Bin => Volume slider.

This means that the TRIM slider works almost like the pre-amp dial on a guitar amp, while the volume slider works more like the master volume of a guitar head.

I don't know of any way to change the order of how the track level, FX bin and trim level gets processed. If someone does, or I have this wrong, please let me know!

Just one more thing to bear in mind.

Ciao,

Q.

 

[pennylink]

Thanks guys. It all makes a lot more sense now, though I was hoping that TRIM somehow would give me more micro-control over track volume.

Sometimes I might find a track sits just a little too loud in the mix, but reducing the level by 0.1 dB makes it a little too quiet. Is there any way to increase/decrease volume by less than the 0.1 dB that VOLUME or TRIM allows?

Not sure if it makes any difference, but I use Sonar 2.2 in conjunction with the software mixer that came with my Aardvark Q10 soundcard/interface, not a hardware mixer.

 

[dachay2tnr]

Pennylink - if 0.1 db causes something to change from too loud to too soft, you must have superhearing. I find it hard to believe you need something finer than 0.1 db.

I've always thought Aaron's explanation was the correct one. What I find a bit weird though is the behaviour of the trim and volume sliders when using the FX bin.

You guys also left offset mode out of the equation. For the purposes you describe (altering track volume when an envelope is present), I would think offset mode might be the best approach. It actually allows you to "offset" the setting of the main track fader without disturbing anything else.

So if the offset is +1.0, all the track settings get an extra 1 db added. The only issue (which I don't find a major problem) is that the settings are hidden in normal view. IOW, you have no way of knowing the offset is present, unless you toggle into offset mode.

Anyway, another $.02 for the dialogue.

 

[pennylink]

Pennylink - if 0.1 db causes something to change from too loud to too soft, you must have superhearing. I find it hard to believe you need something finer than 0.1 db.

I can't hear that much difference when increasing/decreasing a track by 0.1 dB when played back solo, but in the context of a mix I can.

Hey, maybe I could find some other use for my "superhearing"...

 

[Bulls Hit]

Can you hear a cotton ball touching a piece of felt?

 

[Qwerty]

I can't hear that much difference when increasing/decreasing a track by 0.1 dB when played back solo, but in the context of a mix I can.

I would suggest that this is probably indicative of an EQ masking issue as opposed to super hearing.

Sorry.

Q.

 

[Strryder]

Another good use for the trim control is to trim down any tracks that were either recorded very hot or normalized, If you're processing a wave file that's just below clipping thru certain effects or doing any EQ boosting, you can easily drive the signal into clipping, by trimming down you can get back some headroom to work with, some EQ's will even clip a borderline signal while cutting.

Using the channel's volume fader in this type of case won't help because it will be lowering the signal after the FX bin/EQ.

 

[In Tune Audio]

I think Q and Stryder have the right idea. If you change the trim level, your going to be changning the amount of level going into your effects bin.

So if you mix everything, with effects, and then use the trim to adjust the volume, that going to change the way your effect bin works. You will need to reset you plugins, wheather they be compressors, or Eq or what.

 

[mixsit]

...This means that the TRIM slider works almost like the pre-amp dial on a guitar amp, while the volume slider works more like the master volume of a guitar head.

In the flow diagrams, the trim' is pre-everything just like on an analog mixer. So adjusting there would have an impact on your compression thresholds and any other effects that are level sensitive.
Also, the 'clip' envelope is automating trim'.

...The only issue [with offset mode] (which I don't find a major problem) is that the settings are hidden in normal view. IOW, you have no way of knowing the offset is present, unless you toggle into offset mode.

I hear that. Want a short trip to mix hell -bump Offset button by mistake, mix for a while...
Wayne

 

[Imaduck]

Hey, maybe I could find some other use for my "superhearing"...

YOU COULD FIGHT CRIME!!!!!!!!!

Nah, I'm with you though, those 1 or 2 db adjustments are noticable, but I do have really good hearing. It's always funny to watch my bandmates get all pissy when I tell them I want to remix something so I can take down a track a db or 2. Still though, I don't think I've been in a situation where a .5 db increase or decrease would really make that much a difference.

 

[dachay2tnr]

YOU COULD FIGHT CRIME!!!!!!!!!

Nah, I'm with you though, those 1 or 2 db adjustments are noticable, but I do have really good hearing. It's always funny to watch my bandmates get all pissy when I tell them I want to remix something so I can take down a track a db or 2. Still though, I don't think I've been in a situation where a .5 db increase or decrease would really make that much a difference.

He was talking 0.1 db!

I have made adustments myself of 0.1 or 0.2 db (and thought I was being anal when I did it), but I never had a track go from too loud to too soft by making a tenth of a db adjustment.

Yeah, if I only had that .01 db adjustment scale available, I could really make this mix golden.

 

[mixsit]

...Also, the 'clip' envelope is automating trim'.

WRONG.


Thought it did.
Looks like it's two separate thingies after all.