Track Level Vs. Mix Level & it's affect on headroom!

  • Thread starter Thread starter bluwater
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Don't worry about the guitars. The only reason not to track hot is so you don't overdrive the mic preamp. On a distorted guitar, you might not notice that. It only becomes a real problem when every track is slightly overdriven.

You will be just fine.
 
The mixing level really isn't related to the track levels.

That was my first reaction when I read the original post. One has nothing to do with the other. Turning them down won't hurt anything. Now you're involved in a process called "mixing".

What am I missing here?:eek:
 
That was my first reaction when I read the original post. One has nothing to do with the other. Turning them down won't hurt anything. Now you're involved in a process called "mixing".

What am I missing here?:eek:

my original question was whether or not a track with no headroom somehow affects the headroom associated with the mix...or has a negative on the entire mix...

apparently that isn't my concern. it looks as though what i should be worried about is if i overdrove the preamp to the point where it affected the guitar tracks we were recording. i wont be able to figure that out until I A/B a properly recorded gutiar track to the ones i have already.
 
Is this quiz the inexperienced day?:D
I think the snare sounds good...its fairly even and sits in the mix decently. The toms in the beginning are suffering from some distortion in the reverb.

I appreciate the advice, and I'll be taking it. What's it take like 20 mins to set up his rig again to test out a couple of passages and compare them?

The snare track had LOT's of distortion on it from the preamp. Every hit was clipping like crazy!!! I am sure there are digital overs too.

Not sure what you think you are hearing when you say "The toms in the beginning are suffereing from some distortion in the reverb". Not only did the toms NOT distort, but the reverb isn't ever close to distorting.

So, go figure. The snare which you think sounds good IS distorting from preamp distortion. The toms which you think are distorting somehow aren't.

Dare to trust what you think you know now? ;)
 
So, go figure. The snare which you think sounds good IS distorting from preamp distortion. The toms which you think are distorting somehow aren't.
Kinda shows the weakness in the "if you think it sounds good, it is good" idea, doesn't it?

I'm with you, Ed; I say "trust your ears." That, however, completly depends upon one actually *having* ears that can be trusted. That requires training. Training requires experiencing and understanding cause and effect. Experiencing and understanding cause and effect requires study, examination and thinking.

It's so easy for those of us who have been around the block a few times (myself included) to just say, don't worry about this or that, just do what sounds good, because we have alrady been through the process and can trust our ears. But most home recorders just starting out simply don't have that luxury of experience; hell, more than half of them are fooled by Fletcher-Munson and automatically think that louder equals better sounding.

We trust our ears because we have the training in experience. Those that can't yet trust their ears do still need to think about stuff that we can ignore. It's all part of the ear training and brain learning experience.

G.
 
I was thought as you did Glen. But, I have heard way too many pretty good sounding demo's by guys that didn't have a freakin' clue about what they are doing to think that the theory and technical knowledge means much at the end of the day when the mix is done! ;)
 
The "If it sounds good, it is good" thing is true but the more you hear something bad, the better it starts to sound over time. Or I guess, the more used to it you get. I've spent a long time working on a track only to come back to it later realizing everything I did to it just made it worse...progressively...:rolleyes:
 
I was thought as you did Glen. But, I have heard way too many pretty demo's by guys that didn't have a freakin' clue about what they are doing to think that the theory and technical knowledge means much at the end of the day when the mix is done! ;)
I agree, Ed. You misinterpret my apparent emphasis on the textbook stuff. It's all in the ears, the brain an the heart. The tech knowledge is only the set of tools used to help build what the ears, brain and heart create, nothing more, nothing less.

I'm just saying that unless one is born with the audio engineering version of "perfect pitch" (so to speak) - which 99% of us aren't - along with an inbread understanding of how the equipment actually works - which none of us are - they have to start *somewhere*. And comparing one's work to commercial CDs is only going to take one so far when half of the commercial CDs out there actually sound pretty awful from an engineering standpoint.

They're gonna have to use the gear, recording doesn't happen in a vacuum. Sure they can just experiment with twiddling knobs back and forth and seeing what happens, and that's a good thing to do to learn what the gear can and cannot do to their sound. It's definitely something that should be part of their learning process. But in and of itself, it is swinging at a pinata with a blindfold on. Sure it's fun and useful, but it's not very efficient, and a few people are going to get whacked in the nuts along the way.

Actually lerning the basics of what is really going on when the knobs get twiddled can help remove that blindfold and let them lock in on their target faster and understand better what to do the next time they need their knobs twiddled.

For example, how many hours or years would it take just messing around with a parametric EQ before your average Joe Homerecorder stumbled across the idea and method behind the parametric sweep, and what a powerful tool that is for sweeting the sound of just about any track? And how would he know, if his ears aren't yet trained, which frequencis are "offending" and which ones aren't?

Much better that he actually learn that technique from someone else (whether it be a mentor, a book, or an Internet forum) because it will not only help his mixes, but it will help his basic understanding of how the gear works and how to get them most out of it, of how the musical instruments work (with timbres and resonances and all that) and how to get the most out of them, and most of all, provide direct examples of what sounds are intrinsically troublesome and what they actually sound like. It will train his hears and inprove his overall skills.

That one little technique can teach them and their ears skills that go beyond the sweep itself, and be applied to what to listen for in general EQ, instrument miking techniques, and mixing. THAT'S what I call just one tool as a great way of training their ears in what to listen for and what they are actually hearing.

Knowlege, like anything else, is just a tool, it is not an end. The ears are an even better tool, and the tool which trumps all other tools. I agree completly there. But without learning the basic knowledge base along the way, that most of important of tools won't get sharpened anywhere near as sharp or as fast. Don't you agree?

Of course, if someone has the aural taste that is in sound what a hooker's makeup is in sight, all the knowledge and experience in the wold won't make a bit of difference. ;)

G.
 
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The best way I can think of to learn this stuff is to experiment with it and listen. It baffles me that there are so many people saying "oh, don't bother. It'll be fine."

On one hand, maybe it will be fine. How much of a difference a track set at some 12 odd dB lower will make depends on so much in the chain. What mic you're using, how much self noise it has, how loud the source is, the strength of the signal (what the level is going through the preamp), how much power you have to add to the signal to bring it up to that level (what position the gain control is set at, eg. 7 o'clock or 5 o'clock or something), what preamp you have, what the distortion characteristics of that preamp are, what converters you have and whether or not they're going to distort as well at that level, and what DAW you have.

The biggest thing you stand to learn by trying a couple more takes is what the preamp will sound like at a lower level. It might make a significant difference, for better or worse. Or, it might not make very much difference seeing as you're dealing with one track in a mix where everything else is fairly decent. Or, the second take might make the first take sound like a Peavey Bandit in comparison.

(My apologies if you're actually recording a Peavey Bandit.)

The most important factor is the performance. If the performance can be duplicated, you have two sonic flavours to choose from. If you can't duplicate it exactly, it will still give you experience with your signal chain on that type of source.

I agree with saying don't overthink it too much. It's simple: do a take at a lower level and see what happens. Should be good experience.

At the end of the day, if the first performance is still better, that's probably the one you want. Don't sweat the levels over a great performance. The performance is usually more important than anything else. Alternatively, if the guitarist is comfortable to think that he's already got a usable take in the can, the pressure's off. Who knows? He might be able to nail an even better performance the second time.

If you're not on a time clock I can't see the harm in experimenting. That's how we learn.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide to do. If you do end up experimenting, I'd be interested to know how it turned out.


sl
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I'm just saying that unless one is born with the audio engineering version of "perfect pitch" (so to speak) - which 99% of us aren't - along with an inbread understanding of how the equipment actually works -

Oh no! Hillbillies! :eek:

SouthSIDE Glen said:
- which none of us are -

What a relief! You had me going there for a second. :D


sl
 
In the time it takes to read this thread you could have done a bunch of test mixes. The results of that would be that you would be way more familiar with the uniqueness of your particular recording and have accumulated more experience mixing. Your ears would be more attuned to your mixing environment and your personal "compression level" would be reduced. Mess with it a little each day, till you start to feel de-sensitized, then quit for the day to let your ears cool off. You will learn more from accumulated hands on time than you could ever pick up from reading posts from others, though there are some VERY knowledgeable guys hanging out here. Just the fact that the GP is happy with his sound solves 90% of the mixing problem. Imagine how difficult it would be if he was NOT HAPPY with the sound...lol


chazba
 
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